In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Matt Stubbs, Creative Director at Little Lion Entertainment, to explore the rise of live video game attractions and the launch of Arcade Arena London. They discuss how gaming, technology, storytelling and live competition are coming together to create entirely new forms of location-based entertainment. Matt shares the journey from immersive experiences like Crystal Maze and Pac-Man Live to Arcade Arena, offering insights into innovation, guest engagement and the future of interactive attractions.
In this episode, Matt Stubbs, Creative Director at Little Lion Entertainment, shares insights into the innovative world of immersive entertainment, from the origins of the Crystal Maze to the cutting-edge Arcade Arena concept. Discover how technology, storytelling, and experiential design are shaping the future of location-based entertainment.
Show references:
Matt Stubbs - Director of Creative at Little Lion Entertainment
Arcade Arena opening in September
https://www.rli.uk.com/little-lion-entertainment-unveils-arcade-arena/
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Credits:
Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Andy Povey: In this episode of Skip the Queue, we're diving into one of the most interesting new formats in live entertainment. The rise of live video game attractions.
Matt Stubbs: It's a stadium floating around in space. You are playing Pac man as part of this massive competition. The Pac man is there, but you are all packed, people.
Andy Povey: I'm joined by Matt Stubbs from Little Lion Entertainment to talk about their latest thought, Arcade Arena London and what happens when you take the world of gaming and bring it into a physical, real world environment.
Matt Stubbs: You're interacting with it. You can see each other, you're sharing that experience with each other.
Andy Povey: This isn't VR, it's not an escape room. It's something entirely new where players become part of a live competitive game experience built across a purpose designed Arena.
Matt Stubbs: People love scores. Humans love to see their name next to a score that is live.
Andy Povey: We explore how it works, why now is the right moment for this kind of concept and what it could mean for the future of location based entertainment attractions and interactive experiences.
Matt Stubbs: Attractions have got to carry on evolving because if not, then they will unfortunately fall by the wayside.
Andy Povey: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast by and for people working in visitor attractions. Brought to you by Mera. I'm your host, Andy Povey.
Matt Stubbs: My name's Matt Stubbs. I'm the creative director at Little Lion Entertainment. And those that will have heard of that company will have heard of the Crystal Maze lime experience that sort of sits as part of that. So I was an actor. I was an actor for 25 years. I went to wonderful Mountview Academy of Theatre Arts and I graduated there in 2004. Yeah, I was an actor as a jobbing actor and then got a job where me and my mate got a gig essentially by lying and got away in working with an events company. They wanted to produce a huge piratical adventure in the Caribbean and they were looking for a theater company to create this super scale immersive adventure in the Caribbean.
Matt Stubbs: We basically said that we had a theater company and sort of managed to whittle our way into getting this, getting this gig. We did that for six years and the, the job basically was creating, devising a linear story that would happen over three or four, five days. But it was site specific. Right now, site specific usually in sort of the base term means, you know, you put on a Macbeth and you'll stick it in a building and Act 1. Scene 1 is in, you know, the basement and then you follow it to the next room right there's an immersion to that and so, you know, all those things are connected. So we decided to create a promenade slash site specific show based on pirates. But rather than using a building, we used different islands of the Caribbean.
Matt Stubbs: So day one, you're in St. Lucia on the beach and then the scene happens and it all, you know, it all pans out and then overnight the audience that were on a yacht, super yacht, would get like a newsletter under their door, sort of being told what's happened overnight. And then day two, they wake up and they're in St. Vincent and they're told to go to a sugar plantation in St. Vincent and the next thing happened. So, so that was my in. That was my into this crazy world. And I realized that the scale and you know, obviously budget and all that, you know, obviously incredibly important, but scale was something that I'd never really thought about before and gamifying it as well. You know, we started, you know, we hired a pirate ship, one for one job. In fact.
Matt Stubbs: In fact we hired the Golden Hind. There are two Golden Hinds in the world. One of them's in here down at London Bridge by Southern Cathedral. And the second one is in the Caribbean, which we hired and created a game where there are sleeping pirates in the hull of the ship. And you've got to. There were kids involved in this one year as part of the audience and we got them to, you know, climb over the sleeping pirates to get the key, to open the box, to get the thing. To get the thing, to get the thing. So we, so anyway, so that was my life for six, six years. At six years it was complete bonkers.
Andy Povey: I mean that sounds absolutely incredible.
Matt Stubbs: Did that. Came back home and then got the phone call about Crystal Maze. Spoke to Tom, Tom rang me who's our CEO? Tom Boyer, who I was at Mountain View. He was an actor. He said, look, I've got this idea. I'm going to, I'm going to get the rights to the Crystal Maze and we're going to make a live version of it. Are you in? I said, yeah. And that was 10 years ago. That was a pop up in Angel. We sold a lot of tickets very quickly. That then became a second venue in Manchester. Then we got the keys to the Trocadero, which is where our flagship Crystal Maze is now. And then the world has been our oyster since then. Off the back of the Crystal Maze, we started looking at what else was out there.
Matt Stubbs: And this is where the tech gaming element has started to come in over the last few years for us, starting with Chaos Carts and most recently Pac man Live Experience. And it's this snowball, even in this weather, that is continuing to evolve and grow. So that's me and that's the company.
Andy Povey: We at Skip the Queue saw you presenting the concepts behind Arcade Arena at the Innovate X Experience at the Science Museum a few months ago. This is live and open and running in Manchester, isn't it?
Matt Stubbs: Our Crystal Maze venue is essentially where Coronation street used to be on Deansgate in Manchester versus Studios. And there was another studio, another sound stage that was sort of sitting there and we thought, okay, well this could be interesting. And again, were sort of trying to develop this interactive carting game. So, you know, look like we come at the industry from so many different angles. You know, I'm obviously, my background is theater and live performance and super scale interactive, immersive stuff. But then also, you know, the gaming world is becoming such a. It's becoming so mainstream now. And I say mainstream in a positive way. It's becoming almost part of the language of certainly for younger, you know, maybe the generation under me. And with that, you know, that sort of retro thing is sort of has been bubbling away for years.
Matt Stubbs: And we've always been very good at sorts of, you know, nostalgia and retro because of the Crystal Maze. So we sort of go, how the. What do we do? What do we do? We were playing around with this karting game where essentially you drive around in a go kart and the tracks that you are driving around on are all projected. So the world that you are driving around in, you can turn it on at a flick of a switch. You're real, the go kart's real. But everything else is interactive, is projected. But we needed a big space for that. You can't just, you know, you can't. And certainly you need a space that is very flat and very, you know, very open and you can't, you know, the Trocadero for instance, doesn't quite offer that.
Matt Stubbs: So anyway, we found this, we found this place in Manchester next door to where the Crystal Maze is up there. Bang, there we are. That's Chaos Cards. That's our first sort of leaning into, into this is a more tech driven, pun intended world. And then it was about sort of how we evolve that and how we make that something. Which is where the idea for the Arcade Arena appeared. I always use the sort of the analogy for people. Do you remember Wreck It Ralph? Remember that movie where if I could do it somehow I would. I'd design a journey into it where you're literally like shooting down the fiber optic cable of the game and then you're inside the arcade machine. Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, that sort of. You need completely immersed inside this arcade machine.
Matt Stubbs: And that's what we sort of wanted to try and achieve. Where you're not wearing anything, you can see each other, you can see your friends. You're doing it together as a group. You experience it together rather than being behind these things where you might go as one group. And then you don't see or speak to each other for an hour because you all, you know. Right, okay. So it's called the arcade Arena. It's an Arena because it's big. It's based on an arcade machine. We need to now start to add new games to the. If the arcade Arena is the console, is the huge SEGA Mega Drive or whatever, then. And Chaos Carts is the first game cartridge. Let's now find some other game cartridges to put into it when we want to. Off the, you know, off the shelf.
Matt Stubbs: And that's the sort of analogy I was, we were trying to. We were trying to sort of work through. To clarify.
Andy Povey: I love that as a concept, you're changing the experience. You're keeping it fresh or you have the ability to keep it fresh.
Matt Stubbs: Absolutely, yeah. So that's when Pac man appeared. So Pac man appeared two Christmases ago. We, Tom and I had a conversation on Christmas Day. He was in South Africa, I was in Cornwall. And we was. When we. And we started, you know, and it is, it's always that classic thing where it's like, you know, this is my, this is my. Yes, it's my job, but also it's. It's what I love. And unfortunately, when things drop in, it doesn't matter if it's a Monday morning or if it's Christmas day. It just, you know, that we have to have these conversations. And that's, you know, how wonderful, how lucky are we to sort of be able to sort of have that, you know, and sort of have a job that we get to sort of indulge in that much. You know, I think that's completely free.
Matt Stubbs: Anyway. Yeah, so we went off and sort of thought, how do we make a. A real life Pac man theatrical gaming experience in the arcade Arena? That's multiplayer. That's, you know, that can work on, on so many levels. That is, you know, the demographic is right, so it can work for an 8 year old or an 80 year old. I came back with a little deck that I'd made and we discussed it and we then pitched that to Bandai Namco, who are our wonderful partners that own the rights to Pac man.
Matt Stubbs: And then we started the process of working out what the hell it was because obviously what happens with me is as the creative director, I will come up with some ideas and you know, and we have an amazing team of tech support and you know, our head of technical Mark Williams is unbelievable, has an unbelievable brain, as is John Crawley, who's our product director. And sort of between the three of us we'll come to a point where we can work out if it's physically possible in the world to do it. Because a lot of times it's like, can we. No match. You can't know that. No. Because science doesn't offer that as a thing in the world.
Matt Stubbs: So, you know, so that's quite fun to sort of, you know, it's just, it's about how far we can push the book, I suppose, and push the inner, the innovation of the thing that we're trying to come up with, you know. So anyway, that's Pac man. We've got Pac man and Chaos Cards in Manchester and they, they run alongside each other. So, you know, we hit a switch and it's Pac man for the weekend, hit another switch and it's Chaos Cards for the week or whatever. We opened Pac man last May. No, it wasn't, it was April because by the May we'd already franchised it in Dubai. In Dubai. So we, so we had to. Yeah, that was a quick turnaround but, you know, it works.
Andy Povey: The concept's great. And for those people who haven't seen it on the website or who haven't actually managed to get to Manchester. How do you actually get into Pac man? Right, and explain what I would do as a guest.
Matt Stubbs: You enter the front of house and you know, and you always have to have this sort of in world outworld moment, right, where you enter the front of house and it's all, it's a gaming arcade, right? There's arcade machines everywhere. You can get a drink, you can have some Popcor, free popcorn. In fact, when the time is right, you get sent in to the portal. The idea is that you are, you're in worlds, right?
Andy Povey: You're it.
Matt Stubbs: It's this, you know, this. This slow immersion, like I always say, where you're met by a. A wonderful host who will essentially get you ready to step into the shoes of Pac man. So you get given what's called a pack vest. It's basically a. A sort of a wearable bit of technology that's got a big yellow thing on it, like a big yellow sort of screen, circular screen, that the host will type in your name and your player number and your color, and that will come up on the back of your. There's an LED screen on the back of this pack vest. The pack vest has beacons on it, which speaks to the sensors in the ceiling, which gives you that interaction with what you're about to do, which I'll explain in a minute.
Matt Stubbs: Then you watch a little briefing video where you are greeted by the Packmaster. And at the Crystal Maze, the actors who facilitate the teams going around are called Maze Masters, but in Pacman experience, they're called Packmasters. Thank you very much. That was a good. That took me a good while to work out. It's the idea that the Patmaster lives in this space, right? They wear a yellow suit head toe. They're quite buoyant and quite sort of, you know, charismatic. The way that I came up with that was that sort of. Do you remember Robot Wars?
Andy Povey: Craig Charles?
Matt Stubbs: Craig Charles. There you go.
Matt Stubbs: I remember him with that amazing leather jacket on the sort of platform way up high, sort of, you know, with a microphone, doing a bit of commentary, you know, to. To essentially two toasters fighting each other in a. In a. In an Arena, right? And so, you know, you want to. You want to always offer that little bit of performance, that little. That little bit of extra just to sort of bring it all up a bit. It.
Matt Stubbs: So, yeah, so they're greeted by them. They've got their. So they've got the pack vests on, they've got the names on the back.
Matt Stubbs: They're logged into the system. So when they start to play, their names will come up on the scoreboard in the Arena. And the pack master then says, right, is you ready to go? You're ready to enter pacworld? And they're like, okay, yeah, well. Oh, is this not it? Oh, I thought this was. Is this not the space? No, no, the space is in here, but we have to get in here. We need to find the pack coin. And then a massive coin appears, which then one of the team has to slot Into a huge arcade coin slot. You know, this sort of coin slot that opens the music starts, there's a bit of smoke, you know, a bit of smoke and mirrors. And into the Arena they go with the Packmaster on microphone, getting them ready to start their three-tiered Pac-Man journey.
Matt Stubbs: This, the size of it. Imagine a football pitch, but the walls have animated content on them. So you've got Pac man there jumping up and down. And the way that we designed it was it's a stadium floating around in space where you are playing Pac man as part of this massive competition. So it's multiplayer, the Pacman is there, but you are all pac people and you can play eight and eight. So there's two mazes, you could make it one big one. But we thought we'd split it because you don't want to. Because obviously, you know, I think you're getting the idea that this, it's quite physical, this game. It's quite, you know.
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah.
Matt Stubbs: You don't have to run. You know, like if you've ever played Pac man on a, you know, you're just all you're just running, you're moving away from the ghosts and trying to chomp. That's what you're trying to do. You're trying to escape the ghosts and chomp pellets to earn points. That's it. And if you get the power pellets that are in the corners, you chomp them. That means then you can then turn on the ghost and chomp them. That's the game. It's very, very simple. And that's of course what makes it so brilliant and so accessible is because even if you have, no, if you've not played it for 20 years, you still have an idea of the basic rudiments of what Pacman is.
Matt Stubbs: So it's wonderful for the teams to, when they do that sort of initial briefing, it's great because people go, oh yeah, oh. And there's the fruit and there's the orange. That's, you know, and they start to remember, they get that sort of nostalgia that hit. Obviously the mazes get a little bit harder, the music gets a little bit more crazy. We designed two mazes in between the three that our, they're our own sort of incarnation of what Pac man is. Obviously we have to use a lot of the original. Well, everything is original. You know, everything has to get signed off and everything has to be exactly correct for Our partners. But then we were allowed to create two bonus levels essentially that were from our own sort of design. So that was great.
Matt Stubbs: That was a real lovely sort of opportunity to do something sort of completely unique there. And then, you know, there's a winner, a loser, the Packmaster's there commentating, and everyone goes home, you know, joyous and happy and also like with all our experiences a lot of the time, yes, you might come as a big group of friends. You could, you could, there could be 16 people doing this all in one go. Eight and eight on two mazes there. And oftentimes people won't know each other, you know, but because you're in this environment and going back to my original point about you can you, you're interacting with it, you can see each other, you're sharing that experience with each other. So more often than not, you know, people are there afterwards and they'll have a drink and have a good old chat about it.
Matt Stubbs: And you know, and so we're. Yeah, it's. That's the journey. That's Pacman.
Andy Povey: What you're describing is this sort of intersection between the real world, that bit that we all know and love in the attractions industry. The reason we're there, the whole in person entertainment and engagement with technology. It strikes me that's almost unique or what you're doing is almost unique. In the industry.
Matt Stubbs:
There's a, there's a word that gets bandied around a lot and I've used it as well, certainly when I've pitched other ideas. And it's the word hybrid and I, I don't quite like myself when I say it. I don't know, I don't know why.
Andy Povey: I can see you cringing. You know what I mean?
Matt Stubbs: It doesn't, I don't know what. But it, but it's sort of, that's sort of what we're saying, right? It's, it's, you know, what we're trying to do is we're trying to take one thing that's at this side of the scale and this thing that's at the other, as in theater and live performance and competitive socialism. Social, not socialism. Socializing.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Matt Stubbs: Competitive socialism is completely different. Yeah, competitive socializing and, yeah, and then sort of embracing technology. Like I'm a complete Luddite, I really am. And I'm so lucky. I've got such an amazing team that really do know their technology. But actually to embrace all this stuff that's out there. And not only is out there, it's getting more accessible, it's getting cheaper to buy. As you know, the hardware technology isn't going anywhere. It's part of humanity, it's part of the zeitgeist. So if we can find a way to sort of, to lasso around that and, and smash those two things together and in a hybrid way then that's, then that's what we're, we want to try and achieve and that's what we're doing. And also, you know what, bring on the challenge, you know, what's the point otherwise? You know, we've got to keep challenging ourselves.
Matt Stubbs: Certainly that's a massive ethos for what we do. As little as Little lion is because otherwise what's the point? So let's keep our heads up and let's see what's out there. And at the moment it is, you know, technology is so, it's so vibrant and it's so there's so much that we can potentially pick from. And also, you know, the one thing that I'm really passionate about is like my son, I've got a nine year old, he's 10 in November and he, he's a gamer. He loves it, he loves it and I, I'm happy for him to indulge in it because it's a safe space a lot of the time, you know, and actually there's a lot of the things that he plays, there's a lot of strategy to it.
Matt Stubbs: And so what if that is played in a bedroom or on a sofa at home and we throw it into a live space where people can come together and do it with each other. So you know, you get the best of both worlds now. You know, that's how I see it.
Andy Povey: You've got something big and new coming. Take the Manchester concept and bring it down to London. Yeah, talk to us about the new Arcade Arena that's scheduled to open later this year.
Matt Stubbs: So what we're going to do is so if we haven't got enough to do, what we thought we'd do is take the Arcade Arena, Manchester that at the moment has two experiences running inside that space. So we've found a space in London that is a big old space. It's probably double the size of our space in Manchester.
Andy Povey: Oh wow. Well done. Finding that much space in London.
Matt Stubbs: Well this is it. And to be honest, we would have done it much earlier if we'd have found somewhere, you know, that isn't sort of, you know, if you're going to put some, if you're going to put a flagship in London, it needs to be in London. There's no point doing it in, you know, on the outskirts or, you know, it's got to be, it's got to be London centric we feel anyway, that's, that's what works for us and we found it and it's Arcade Arena flagship Arcade Arena London. It's going to house not one, not two, but three games cartridges that go into the console. So those games will run in parallel, they'll all run at the same time.
Matt Stubbs: So what you're going to get is you're going to get Chaos Cards and then you're going to get Pac man and then you're going to get our third, our latest experience that I can say it's called Alien Invasion. That is our own IP that we're creating and that is a mix up, a mash up, a hybrid of laser tag. It's Floor is Lava. It's a sci fi adventure led by a wonderful character called Commander Egan who takes you on this dystopian adventure to essentially defeat the unknown extraterrestrial force, save the day and come back home heroes. And so that's our latest one that we're working on. So that will go into the new space alongside Pac man Chaos Carts when we open at the end of the summer, September, summer.
Matt Stubbs: And what's sort of quite fun about, quite fun, what's terrifying and fun about this next project is that not only are we putting these three things all under the same roof, we've never done this before. So you know, let's, you know, let's, let's test ourselves.
Matt Stubbs: But what we're also going to offer with this space is the idea of the destination, like with theater, with regular theater or I'm trying to think of, you know, something else that's sort of similar where you'll go and do the thing and then you'll leave and go for a meal somewhere where what we want to try and achieve here is that you go to Arcade Arena London and you've got this amazing restaurant bar under all, under one roof as well, you know, so then you can go and do Chaos Carts and then you can go and have some lunch and then you can book yourself in for Pac man in the afternoon or whatever, you know, and to sort of, so to generate this sort of whole sort of destination world is something that we certainly haven't done before and we're really excited to work out what that is, you know, and build from that as well.
Andy Povey: Love the content. So you designed Alien invasion yourselves as an in house ip. How do you start on something like that? Are you looking at the tech first? Are you looking at the story first?
Matt Stubbs: We always try and test ourselves with new hardware. Certainly from a tech perspective it's about sort of what can we do next? That, you know, what is it? What's the physicality of it that we can sort of, that we can then sort of mold into what the experience is, if that makes sense. So that's definitely a starting point and it's, you know, it's sort of working out if, how far we can push that. But it has to really, to be honest, it's got to come from the experiential place first. I. E. What is it that people haven't done before that we think might want to do again for you again? Go back to Crystal Maze. Like, you know, I remember saying to myself and to my parents, oh my God, in the 90s, oh my God, imagine if you can do that for real.
Matt Stubbs: That was a sentence a lot of people said back then. Oh my God, imagine if that was a real thing that you could do for real. So, you know, there's a lot of. So for us to answer your question on sort of how the hell do you, where do you go next and how do you develop another. A new thing? We do spend a lot of time and you know, there's a budget for market research, know, and we go out into the field and we try and sort of try and work out what it is that people want next and what people are bored of and what people. Don't be honest, what people. It's, it's more interesting and maybe more helpful finding out what people don't want, you know.
Matt Stubbs: Yeah, because we can use our instinct as much as possible and I think I've got a pretty good instinct for most of this stuff. But you know, we could be completely off like, you know, and sometimes we are. And that's brilliant actually when that happens because then we can, then, we can then focus in on what you.
Andy Povey: Learn from everything, don't you?
Matt Stubbs: Yeah, so that, I suppose it's that. And then we then go into, yeah, we go into Sort of crazy. We get, we do crazy idea meetings. You know, imagine, imagine. And then we sort of bring ourselves all off the ceiling and then discuss exactly what the realities are, you know, and get excited again. And it's a pro. It's a process, you know, and I, I get so frustrated because I just want everything to just be done straight away. Why isn't it already there? So we can do that. Why can't we get into the. Why can't we get into the narrative? Let's start the, you know, where's the journey, where's the. Or, you know, and all that stuff. And of course, that has to wait until we've actually got the rudiments of what the thing is first.
Matt Stubbs: You know, we're just lucky to have such a great team. And also, you know, the ability to go out and find people that are specialists in certain corners of the industry or certain corners of technology that we need to again to lasso and bring over and use and collaborate with. So it's. Yeah, it's. The processes is quite the thing. And it takes, you know, these things take time. Like, by the time we've, we're in. It's. It's certainly, I mean, ideally it would be a year and a half, but usually it's about 12 months for this type of thing, you know.
Andy Povey: I'm surprised it's that quick, I must admit. I thought you were going to tell me five years.
Matt Stubbs: No, no, I mean. And, well, look, this is the thing, isn't it again? You know, it goes back to sort of my theater days and that idea of you get into the last week of rehearsal and then suddenly you're in the, into the tech rehearsal and you're. And, and suddenly it's press. And there's always that moment in your mind going, oh, imagine if you could just have one more week, just one more week. And then we, you know, what if we kept on saying just one more week? No one would do anything. No, nothing would be open. You know, so there's gotta be, you know, there has to be a moment at some point where you just go, yeah, you know, line in the sand. Let's just, let's do it, man. Let's get out.
Matt Stubbs: That's why you offer sort of previews and you extend the olive branch and go, look, this is a brand new thing. We're gonna, we're gonna, we need a focus group for a week, you know, free Tickets come and check it out. Come and let us know what you think. So we do all that stuff on top of it, certainly when we're trying that new things, a new technology.
Andy Povey: You're building something new. I think so. Arcade Arena for me sort of sits between the gaming world, the live entertainment world, the location based entertainment, and a traditional visitor attraction. Is this a new category or is an arcade Arena a one off?
Matt Stubbs: I think it is, I think it's becoming a new category, isn't it? I use that phrase competitive socializing again, you know, and yeah, I think it is. And I, I tell you, I think this is why it's a new category, right? So, so bear with me. So VR, right? A VR experience. You, you go through, you play the game, right? And it's. I, I'm pretty certain that most of them that I've done, it's sort of A to B to C to D. And it's the same thing every time, right? A roller coaster. Right? A roller coaster at a theme park. You go and do the roller coaster and it's terrifying and brilliant. But you do it once and if you wanted to do it again then. Because there is repeatability with Rogue, with, with theme parks.
Matt Stubbs: But it's the same, you go and do the same thing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But with, but with what we're trying to do is every time you go, there's a sense where you can pivot, right? So for instance, with Chaos Carts, we're changing the tracks. You can change the levels, you can change, you know, you can redesign the fabric of what you what, see, the rudiments stay the same, but the fabric changes, right? So the content is, the levels change. So, so to have that repeatability, I think is massively important because I think certainly people, that's what people want as well, aren't they people? Because this stuff is getting more in, it's certain.
Matt Stubbs: Like, you know, 10 years ago Crystal Mays and a few other companies were bubbling away almost underground still, and now it's become definitely, it's a mainstream part of the industry where this I think is definitely still in its sort of in its infancy when it comes to the changeability of what the experience is going to be. Absolutely. Because in fact, any of these games that we're making, you can, yeah, you can change the level, you can do a sequel, you know, Alien Invasion, you know, you, you save the day, you save Earth from the aliens. Well done, well done. And then there's Alien Invasion 2. When you've got to completely. You all live on Venus now and you've got to say. And so that's cool, right? Like certain. And as well, you know, the other thing that's.
Matt Stubbs: I've just sort of reminded myself is I've always wanted to try and work out like leagues. Like, you know, like I can like the esports thing, right? Like, esports is such a massive part of this world. People love scores. I talk about this a lot. Humans love to see their name next to a score that is live. It's a live scoreboard, right? And they're running around or they're shooting all the day and they're first and then. But now that's. And that, you know, and so imagine if you could then sort of evolve that and suddenly there's a, you know, there's a. There's a Pac man live experience, you know, UK wide table. And so, you know, I think, to answer your question, I think this is a new category. What it is, I don't know, but it's, it's got. Yeah, it's got legs, thankfully.
Andy Povey: You mentioned it's got legs. What's it look like in five years, do you think?
Matt Stubbs: Like I've just said about the maze and when we started 10 years ago, I think lots of people are going to want to try and do this. I think in our industry, people are already trying to do it. That is a positive thing. I think that's fantastic, actually, because it will drive those young people out of their bedrooms into the real world again. And I think that is. I will fly that flag. I think also I think maybe there's something in the idea of reminding families that they can do stuff together again. You know, this is basically, I think, you know what this is. This is basically what we're trying to achieve. This is like the new bowling. This is like. It's completely, you know, it's completely accessible. Anyone can do it.
Matt Stubbs: It's a destination sort of space where you can spend the whole day there with your whole family or your mates. You go down the pub or it's a hen do or it's. And so I think we'll get to a space where there'll be more of it. We'll obviously be leading the charge. And I think to be able to pivot and have sequels, I think is something that people are going to want actually. And just the. Just look, just the evolution of it, like, you know, I think attractions have got to. They've got to carry on evolving. Because if not, then they will unfortunately fall by the wayside.
Andy Povey: I mean, what you've just described, Matt, reminds me of a recording we did with Douglas from Avon Valley Scare park back in November. And for him, the USP was that this is something that dads are going to do with their teenage sons.
Matt Stubbs: Yeah.
Andy Povey: Which is a really difficult time in a family. And how do you maintain that connection with your kids as they become young adults? Yeah, I think it is incredibly important.
Matt Stubbs: I think that's such a fantastic. Yeah. That, that chimes with me big time. You know, again, you know, my boy, you know, turning 10 at the end of this year and you know that. Yeah. That you already start to see that sort of, you know, he's in his room more and you know.
Andy Povey: Yeah, I'm not cool anymore.
Matt Stubbs: Yeah, that's it. That's it. Yeah, I'm not the funniest, I'm not the. Yeah. The funniest guy in the room anymore. And I'm being deadly serious about it. I'm not, you know, I think it is important, you know what. As well. And I will constantly bang the drum about this. Any live element. When I say live, I mean live, performative element. Yeah, any of this stuff has to be almost front and center of any of these types of experiences. If you lose that human element entirely, then.
Matt Stubbs: Then you are in sort of roller coaster world, you know, where you're just sort of on a, you know, you're just on a sort of a conveyor belt, you know, And I don't, I want there still to be that theatrical human interaction with all the stuff that we try to achieve, because I think that is a art form that needs to be continued.
Andy Povey: So one thing we try and make consistent throughout everything we do on Skip the Queue is looking at advice for our listeners who don't necessarily have access to the budgets the our guests have, but don't specialize in the specific things that our guests do. So what would be your one piece of advice to anybody operating in attraction out there today? How they make the most out of their experience for their guests?
Matt Stubbs: I think we have to remember, and it's such an obvious one, you know, but we've got to remember that the audience, slash guests do come. They have to come first. They have to. They're willing to pay money, pay their hard earned money to come and do something that you've made. Therefore, the respect therefore needs to be shown back to that person and What I mean by that is actually when it comes to the making of these things, you know what, sometimes just keeping it as simple as possible and keeping it nice and tight is often the way certainly to start rather than sort of, you know, going absolute sort of crazy scatter gun, just try and sort of focus in on what the actual rudiments of something is and keeping it nice and simple with clarity.
Matt Stubbs: Because then if an audience slash team member gets it straight away, you've already won to over egg the pudding to make it convoluted or make it too highbrow where you know only a small percentage of them are going to get it. What's the point man like? Keep it fun, keep it engaging, keep it simple, and look after your audience first.
Andy Povey: Bosh.
Matt Stubbs: There you go.
Andy Povey: Four bullet points to end on. Well, thank you, Matt, a great conversation and I'm really now looking forward to the opening of Arcade Arena London later this year. If you've enjoyed this week's episode, please do leave a rating or even a review on whatever podcast platform you use. It really helps people to find us, which in turn brings us these opportunities for some great chat. Today's episode was edited by Steve Pollen, produced by Emily and Sammy, and plaster socials and coordination by Gwen Lynn and Skip qhq. I've been your host, Andy Povey, until next time. Goodbye and thank you for listening.