In this episode, Andy Povey is joined by Duncan Phillips, Founder and Managing Director of DP Leisure and DP Associates, the team behind 360 Play. They explore the potential impact of one of the biggest developments in the UK attractions sector: Universal's proposed destination resort in the UK, and what it could mean for the wider visitor economy. What opportunities could a major destination resort create? How can existing attractions position themselves as part of a broader visitor journey? And what can operators learn from other markets where world-class attractions have reshaped the landscape? Duncan shares his insights on destination thinking, guest expectations, competition, collaboration, and the priorities attraction operators should be focusing on over the next five years.
In this episode, Andy Povey is joined by Duncan Phillips, Founder and Managing Director of DP Leisure and DP Associates, the team behind 360 Play.
They discuss the potential impact of Universal's proposed UK resort, the opportunities it could create for attractions, and how operators can adapt to changing guest expectations. Duncan shares his thoughts on destination thinking, collaboration, competition, and the priorities attractions should focus on over the next five years.
Show references:
Duncan Phillips, Founder and Managing Director of DP Leisure and DP Associates
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Credits:
Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Intro
The Government has confirmed it will invest 1.3 billion pounds in regional and community infrastructure to help deliver the universal UK resort, which is coming to Bedfordshire in 2031.
Andy Povey
In this week's episode, we're going to be discussing the impact of the biggest development in the UK attractions landscape, possibly.
Intro
Ever set to become the UK's biggest tourist attraction, predicted to boost the economy by nearly 50 billion pounds.
Andy Povey
Universal's plans for a major new destination resort in the UK and what that could mean for the wider visitor economy. What opportunities do major developments create? How can existing attractions position themselves as part of the bigger visitor journey? And what lessons can operators learn from other markets where world class attractions have transformed the landscape?
Duncan Phillips
You can't suddenly crack in a few billion quids' worth of investment into small group attractions. What we can do is we can make sure that we learn and we see that when the expectation of the consumer goes up, we match it.
Andy Povey
I'm your host, Andy Povey. I'm joined by Duncan Phillips. Duncan's the founder and managing director of DP Leisure and DP Associates, the team behind 360 Bay. He's a real stalwart of the attractions industry, particularly across the UK's South Midlands region. Duncan shares his thoughts on destination thinking, guest expectations, competition, collaboration and what attractions should be focusing on over the next five years.
Duncan Phillips
What an opportunity this is, but actually to make sure that collectively we work together to benefit that opportunity rather than actually see it as a threat or a challenge to us.
Andy Povey
Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast for people working in and with visitor attractions brought to you by Merak.
Duncan Phillips
I'm lucky enough to have been a byproduct of this great industry. Started at the age of probably 12 or 13, if we're allowed to say that these days, working within the family business, which was Gulliver's Theme parks and had 17 years in the Gulliver's theme park group, growing from one to four sites before branching out to set up DP Leisure, a group of seven at the moment. UK indoor FEC attractions.
Andy Povey
Your own business is not the limit of what you do. There's a load of other things and other areas, other hats that you wear in the industry. You've been a long time supporter of Balpa. Can you just run through your timeline with Balpa for our listeners? Wow.
Duncan Phillips
Well, my first interaction, and this is probably going to sound very old fashioned for those that don't understand dates that start with 19. My first BALPA interaction was about 1988 when BALPA visited our theme park, Gulliver's Kingdom on the Hill when we opened our new Royal Cave tours. And I was very young, probably 12 or 13, handing out food and running with drinks around and serving all the Balpa community that came to visit our park at the time. Roll on to 2021. I think I took over. Excuse me if that date's slightly incorrect because we're all in of COVID at that point. Then to be able to serve the community of Balpa as its chairman. So from serving a few drinks from a wee boy to then being able to serve the industry as chairman was a great honour.
Andy Povey
No. And I remember the Balpa AGM dinner on the sunborn yacht where your mum and dad came along. That must have been a very special evening for you.
Duncan Phillips
Yeah, it was. It was full of. Yeah. Lots of. Lots of emotion and lots of pride at being able to still serve the industry. That has served me very well. I've been very lucky in the industry. I've. I think we're a great industry when. When you enjoy what you do and what you do is fun, there is no better industry to be in.
Andy Povey
It couldn't have been more dungeon. So a number of years ago, you were instrumental in the opening of Gulliver's World down in Milton Keynes. And since then you've become a sort of stalwart of the attractions industry in that part of the world, including being the trustee of Bletchley Park Museum. So it's not just theme parks. What was it about Buckinghamshire that persuaded you to leave the beautiful Derbyshire countryside?
Duncan Phillips
Well, we'd finished and we got our second site in Warrington, Gulliver. That was Gulliver's World in Warrington. It's Gulliver's Land in Milton Keys.
Andy Povey
Oh, forgive me.
Duncan Phillips
No, that's all right. It was one of the same business in many senses, and were keen to find another location. And geographically, this part of the country is rich in visitors, in no small part because it sits midway between London and Birmingham, it has a very good motorway connection, it has very good train connections. And in terms of locating a day visitor experience, I always think it's been one of the hidden gems of the country here. Everyone looks at it. And I know when I was involved also setting up the destination marketing company here in Milton Keynes back in the day, and when we started that, a lot of people say, well, why that area? That area is not a tourist area. It's not a tourist area, but it's 100% a day visitor area.
Duncan Phillips
And did you know this part of the country has more day visitors than the Lake District because they are coming from Birmingham, they are coming from London and they're going to the attractions that are here. So an incredibly accessible piece of the country. Couple that with a development corporation back in the day. So Milton Keynes is a new town. So when we arrived here in 19977 we signed to do the deal for the site we opened in 99 Gulliver's land here. It was through a development corporation which is a very pro development body which sits to the side of our local authority. At the time, because it was still development for Newtown, it was very pro growth, pro bringing attractions into Milton Keynes to increase the offer of the city.
Duncan Phillips
Not just for the local residents which are growing rapidly, but from visitors coming from both lond through to Birmingham, but also Northampton, Bedford, Oxford, Cambridge. We sit in a real hotspot here.
Andy Povey
Now we've got some big news coming in here in your part of the world. Universal announced the name of their new resort, unsurprisingly, Universal United Kingdom resort back on the 3rd of June. Are they just following on your coattails, Duncan?
Duncan Phillips
Well, do you know, I guess if were a dreamer we'd say, oh yes, look, they can see it's a great location. No, I don't think they are, but obviously their location teams have looked at it hard and I also do know they looked at land within Milton Keynes really hard. But there wasn't the landmass necessarily available for what they did. So that's why they sit just outside Milton Keynes, within Bedfordshire, just on the edge of Bedford. So it's one and the same in many senses. And it's the connectivity that I've already spoken about with London and Birmingham that obviously is one of the key draws that brought them to this part of the country, same as it brought, gosh, 20 something years ago. And let's not think too hard about that.
Andy Povey
Stop counting. As someone that's a key pin to the attractions industry in that part of the world. What opportunities are you seeing and you anticipating or even advising some of your other attraction operating community that come from Universal coming to your part of the world?
Duncan Phillips
Well, I don't think I'm a kingpin of the area. I'm just very passionate about Milton Keynes and its region and very passionate about this area of the country too. The advice and the conversations that I'm lucky enough to get involved in has been what an opportunity this is. But actually to make sure that collectively we work together to benefit that opportunity rather than actually see it as a threat. Or a challenge to us. There will be threats, there will be challenges. You know, there will be pressures in lots of areas to businesses. But I'm definitely a strong believer that actually you've got to look at what this is going to bring because if you look at what this is going to potentially impact you cannot compete as a small, either family operator or a regional operator or an attraction.
Duncan Phillips
If you say, well, we better compete, it is much better to join and differentiate, but be part of that rather than to compete.
Andy Povey
The announcement of investment is something like 5 billion and then another 1.3 billion from the government to support local infrastructure and that kind of stuff. Where do you see that this has worked in the past where you've had a really large major new venue open and it changed that ecosystem?
Duncan Phillips
Well, I mean, we haven't seen this scale of investment in the uk, I think, full stop, ever.
Andy Povey
No, I agree.
Duncan Phillips
That's the point. So it's very difficult to draw parallels and say, oh, look what happened here or there. We haven't seen this. Yes, we've seen major projects within the tourism and leisure sector around the millennium. There's numbers of them. Eden has just turned 20, 25 years old. You know, so we've seen really big developments like that. I know they're going to make some great changes in the areas that they bring to, but it is not on the scale of this. This is on a much larger scale than that. The only parallel to it, Andy, would be to say, okay, well what happened when Disney came to Paris? Yeah, and I remember that well. And again, going back to the thing through Balpur, which is why, you know, I'm so passionate about.
Duncan Phillips
I was lucky enough to be joining a conference of the European operators pre Disney in Europe. And there was a lot of talk in that room there about, oh gosh, this is a threat. And if it does, do you know 6 million visitors, that's going to take a million from me, a million from you, a million from the other. How are we all going to survive? And then blow me. The year that Disney opened, everybody actually had their largest footfalls. And if you look at the overall footfall going to theme parks for a day out in Europe, it didn't drop, it went up, you know, So I think that's the only place I could turn around and answer your question and say, well, where have I seen this happen before? It happened there.
Duncan Phillips
There was lots of worry, there was lots of concern from a lot of people in the room that day and the net result is actually more People get exposed to theme parks, they're going to other theme parks because they've been made more aware of what is this big theme park thing, why aren't I getting in on it? And I'm not going to go there, but I'm going to try my local one instead. So, overall, the net benefit to the European sector was more visitors going to theme parks that year than ever before. And I think that's the same things going to provide here in the uk. It's going to have that same impact about making awareness of a theme park day out.
Andy Povey
Yeah, so we're increasing the size of the total pie rather than decreasing your slice of it.
Duncan Phillips
Yeah, I think it is. And I think, dare I say, I think one of the hidden opportunities that's going to occur here. Well, there's many hidden opportunities and we probably haven't got long enough today to talk about them all. And in all fairness, but the one that I think is more controversial is actually there's going to be a step change in price. So this, I think, will have a significant impact on people around us, people in the UK that Universal will come in with their product and they will charge a premium price for a proper premium product. And that's going to be quite universally changing. I think in the sector that we now don't have to just offer value, value. Of course we want to offer value, but we're not having a race to the bottom of who can produce the cheapest day out.
Duncan Phillips
You know, if you want to go for a great day out, if you want that top level of experience, if you want that thing, you will be paying for it at Universal. And I think it will then give a precedent out there for other operators not to be afraid to charge for a premium experience, which I think is going to be one of the hidden steps that's going to occur. That might not at first be known, but I think actually will have such a resounding impact on the sector.
Andy Povey
No, that's a really interesting point. And we hear from a lot of the conferences and a lot of the chat across the whole industry, although we're in this cost of living challenge, there is still a sector in society that isn't affected by it. So premium products are still selling out and value doesn't necessarily mean cheap.
Duncan Phillips
And I think that's it. And I think there's a real challenge. And interestingly, when I came out of day visit theme parks and went into indoor feces, I actually saw that also there, because it was almost like there's an unwritten rule you can't charge over that. If you expect people to come out to an indoor attraction or an FEC or something like that, and it becomes a real challenge, a ceiling to break through. And are you bolder to break through that ceiling with something that's higher priced in a marketplace where price has been the fundamental derivative to get your volume through? So it's your key lever, gear stick, whatever you want to be calling it.
Duncan Phillips
And I saw that firsthand as we started with the 360 product where we said, you know, we're going to have to charge a proper price, we're going to charge for adults, we've got to charge for adults and children for these. When traditionally in that sector that wasn't done. And I think as a result, you know, it's very easy to get trapped underneath price barriers, underneath price points. And I think that's what Universal will bring along in a much larger scale to the industry to be able to say, well, actually the price point is there because that's what it costs for that level of experience. If you want that level experience will give you that level experience and it will be unparalleled, but it will be priced accordingly.
Duncan Phillips
And I think that's going to be a really interesting thing, how that ripples through the sector for us to be able to be bold and not be scared of price. Because ultimately we all run businesses, Andy, and you can only put the rides and the attractions or the product or the service level in if you can afford to do it. And if you're not charging enough, you can't afford to do it. And it becomes a cycle that's quite entrapping.
Andy Povey
Yeah, it's a breaks to the bottom there, isn't it? And by putting in this step change, it changes that whole conversation.
Duncan Phillips
I don't know, that's just my off the cuff.
Andy Povey
We're going to record this, Duncan. We're going to engrave this into a tablet of stone. Philip's comment on Universal coming to the.
Duncan Phillips
Uk, but that's just one of them, you know, the opportunities are not just that, it's the half day visits, it's the region that it pulls in, it's the European approach that actually, you know, I think at a time that we sit now, when I travel around Europe a lot and my son himself is actually studying and living in Europe at the moment, I think it's a great opportunity for Europe to come back to the uk. And actually coming over to the uk, there's something great happening here too. It's not just about, you know, the main city destinations. For the sort of more cultural tourism based stuff, we've got something else to be going for.
Andy Povey
Well, anything that drags the inbound tourists out of London is all to the good for the wider economy, isn't it?
Duncan Phillips
And I think adds to it, you know, I think that's the other clever thing about the location, you see, you know, I could leave my office sitting here in the center of Milton Keynes. I'm in London in 35 minutes on train, you know. So for got actually the London market as well. That's why this location is so clever because you might already be in London and actually you can be able to connect back up with the park within and I'm not going to quote the Bedford line because I don't know what speeds they're running at or be picked up somewhere along the line but you know, within a very easy distance you can be visiting London and then also have a day out at Universal.
Andy Povey
My initial thought was that this is going to raise the quality of all of the attractions in the uk. I love the fact that you picked on price because the two, they're hand in hand. They're both sides of the same coin, aren't they? You can't have a great quality experience with a 5 billion pound investment if people aren't putting the money in and someone's going to make them 100.
Duncan Phillips
I mean, at the end of the day I'm an operator Andy, and we all want better service, we all want to be able to have more staff there, we want to be able to have high investment, we want to put those things in. But in order for you to be able to do it, you have to be able to charge for it. It's not sustainable just to put it in if you're not making money off it because you're charging too cheap a price. But equally if you can't afford to get your price up to a certain point, it becomes inhibitive to actually grow the experience quality in all areas.
Andy Povey
So Universal slated to open sometime around 2031. So we've got four or five years. What do we need to do as an industry to prepare ourselves?
Duncan Phillips
You can do two things. You can, one, try and prepare yourself to compete and I think that's one hell of a challenge to be doing that over the next thing. Or you can be preparing yourself to engage the increase that's going to occur in the year. So I, I think it will be about investment, I think there will be investment in some of our larger parks in the UK as they prepare themselves for it. But you know, for little old me running my little attractions, things like that, you know that's not applicable there. So, you know, for me, what should we be doing? Well, anyone that we advise and that we help along with, it's actually starting to understand, well, make sure you know who you are and what you are and you differentiate yourself from it.
Duncan Phillips
I think one of the biggest challenges are, is if we go and compete, because compete isn't actually the way forward here. Differentiate is. So actually you can create. Well, you know, we're a very different experience. It might be a much more local feel. We might want to be engaging much more with local brands, local product, local whatever. What are the things that we've got that locks us into our communities, that differentiates us so that when people come to our attractions or our experiences, they get something that's different to the product that you'd be getting if you go to Universal.
Andy Povey
No, I love that. And it's the same story really, regardless of whether the Universal's coming or not.
Duncan Phillips
That is your strategy, full stop. I think all this does, I mean, go on, you know, we'll widen this one out here. You know, what did Covid do? What did Covid impact? Covid was a bit of an accelerator, wasn't it? You know, for those of us who battled through Covid with attractions, I was fortunate enough to take over as chairmanship of Balpa just at the onset of that. What a time to get the hot seat. But actually what that did and what that does, it speeds up things, it allows things to move much faster. Covid moved everything on like five, 10 years rapidly. And I think actually Universal is going to have a significant impact in a similar way, but obviously totally different.
Duncan Phillips
I'm not for anybody with Universal sitting there, liking it to the COVID Through Covid, we saw that actually everything changed really quickly and we, you know, the industry did change overnight from 15 to 20% people pre booking online to 80 to 90% straight away after there was a step change to occur. There was also a step change in price occurred there. Not as big as I think the one that's coming down the line, but I think Universal will be an accelerator. So over the next five years you will see an acceleration of strategic thinking, investment, looking at your business in more detail. That actually we are meeting the market is what we want to do. We are passionate about that and that comes across in the way that we deliver our product.
Duncan Phillips
All of those things are going to happen probably at a faster pace than if Universal wasn't coming.
Andy Povey
Yeah. And that's not a bad thing at all, is it? And the other thing I think Covid gave us the freedom to do is to experiment and to take more risks.
Duncan Phillips
Well, I think were forced into it, if I'm brutally honest. I mean, when somebody one day, Andy, and says, by the way, on Tuesday you're closed and suddenly everything that you've done has to change. And I think much that was a very stressful, an incredibly impactful period of time. I think it allowed all of us in the industry at the other end of it to come out of it and say, you know, we thought we couldn't do that, but we can. And that is an amazing skill set to start and put across. We didn't know we could do that until we tried it, but we did it and it worked. So therefore, what else could we do if we try it?
Andy Povey
You mentioned Destination Milton Keynes or dmo. Talk to us a little bit about what's going off in your area around the destination marketing.
Duncan Phillips
Well, you know, obviously there's a lot of people talking, there's a lot of little groups coming together to weigh that. I think in the early days it was how we could support Universal getting here and getting them sort of over the line, as it were. And I think that's already starting to change to the mindset of how are we going to work with Universal and how does Universal want to work with its region? And this brings on a whole interesting conversation. I was fortunate enough to be involved in the setting of Destination Milton Keynes, which was one of the very first DMOS that came into being. Not by choice, interestingly, by action. Milton Keynes had a tourism department or tourism section which one day said, actually, we're not going to carry on, we're going to close.
Duncan Phillips
And that spawned a group of us attractions coming together to actually say, well, we'll create an organization of our own, we'll run our own tourist information centre, we'll do our own promotions and we'll get on with it. And that was the birthplace of that. Now, that was very much, how do you promote Milton Keynes to get people to come from London or Birmingham to come to Milton Keynes for the weekend, maybe stay overnight in a hotel and do from skiing to Gulliver's to heritage, you know, what Milton Keynes has got to offer. And I think that gave me a really interesting insight into how when you do engage people together, positive, you can make really Differences and there's DMOS all over the country.
Duncan Phillips
I think the challenge we have here, and I think there are conversations going on and I think they're all really positive at the moment, is the onset of Universal will create a new region that isn't necessarily either Bedfordshire, Buckinghamshire or Cambridgeshire, or even Hertfordshire for that matter. It's going to create a new region where a new set of thinking probably needs to come out of it. And I think this is already, well inverse, but it needs a lot of confidence that DMOS don't just look in at, well, how many extra bed nights can we sell in Milton Keynes? Or how many extra bed nights can we sell in Bedford? Or how many extra bed nights going to be sold in Oxford collectively?
Duncan Phillips
All those DMOs or local authority visitor attraction groups probably need to come together as one because from the visitor perspective, they will not see the traditional county lines that divide the areas. We will have a large number, and I'm not going to quote how many millions, because, you know, that's still all up in the air. But there will be millions of people coming into this area for an experience at Universal that may want a half day experience somewhere else. And that will not be driven by, well, we'll only do it in this county because we're coming to Bedfordshire.
Duncan Phillips
It's going to involve coming on with train links that we've got a day in Oxford, a day in Cambridge, a trip to Bletchley park for a half day on a heritage, an overnight stay in Milton Keynes, and then some other bits and pieces here, and then a day at Universal for those day trippers that are going in. So all of a sudden, for those organizations which span from Cambridge to Oxford, including the Milton Keynes, Bedford, Northampton and all those sort of towns and cities, because we are a city now, Milton Keynes, you know how all those work together to have a unified approach rather than everybody trying to fight over the same consumer saying, don't go to Oxford, come to Cambridge, don't go to Cambridge.
Andy Povey
Yeah, yeah, don't go to Bedford,.
Duncan Phillips
Come to Milton Keynes. And I think the value of it is if actually as a, and I'll call ourselves a region, an arc, I think is the word that's been used a lot, how we work together to both support opportunities for Universal, to work with partners that are in the region, not just in the district, that makes.
Andy Povey
A lot of sense. The work that happened with destination. Milton Keynes was one of the first, if not the first DMO in the country, wasn't it? I Wonder if there's a lesson coming out of this the other regions are going to look at and talking to each other maybe.
Duncan Phillips
Yeah, we didn't. I mean I can go back to the days I remember it setting up. We did not set this up to be different. We did not set this up because oh well, we've got a great idea and it's going to be funded by this and it's going to become a great mechanism for others to use. Destination Milton Keynes came about because three or four of us got together and said actually we need to just make this work. It wasn't to do with boundaries, it wasn't to do with politics, it wasn't to do with funding, it was to do with opportunity. I think that's the key thing here is not to look at.
Duncan Phillips
Well if we do that we can access this fund and we can get a state fund for this or DCMS will fund this part of it and that part of it and suddenly then it becomes driven by what you can fund. And I think the lesson that we got when we set up DMK and we didn't know it at the time, to be honest, I don't think it was were crystal ball gazers, we didn't know what we're doing but we didn't have to set it up on the basis of what we could get funded through a grant from central government, from regional governments and things like this. We set it up because we needed to. And I think the motto there is for us to take the opportunity now I think we need to have something set up that works across our region.
Duncan Phillips
Not necessarily looking at well how a region can bank the opportunity of getting funding through for a new organization that's going to Billy sitting in a council somewhere and it sits in Bedford Council, it's in on Keane's council, it's in Cambridge Council, it's Oxford Council. And you get into that whole boundary scenario that comes with it and I probably said stuff that is very non acceptable out there but I think it's those that are involved in that look at what the opportunity and focus on how do you make the opportunity work rather than actually how do we make this region work and how are we going to get it funded and what we're going to call ourselves and who's going to be controlling the brand identity of it.
Andy Povey
Very, very positive. Wise words Duncan. I hope there are some people listening who can will make that happen and.
Duncan Phillips
I'm sure they are. Actually I will say that I was asked along to A couple of things and I do think that is in train, I think what we've all got to make sure that we do over these next three or four years, we don't become territorial over it and we maintain that high level objective of opportunity rather than it becomes than something that is a political potato that any one particular person wants to own. I mean, don't get me wrong, very passionate about Bedford. I think it's a great thing for Bedford, it's a great thing for our region. I mean we haven't even touched on employment opportunities. I haven't even touched on all of the other stuff that are coming along that's coming great down the line.
Andy Povey
That was what I was coming to. The publicity I've read says that we're anticipating something like 8,000 people working at the new resort. Recruitment is difficult in our market, in our industry at the moment. Some of that's to do with wages. So the payment, the price conversation feeds into that. But it's not just that. Where do you go and find 8,000 experienced people to go and run your visitor attraction almost overnight?
Duncan Phillips
Well, I think it's almost a bit like the similar conversation, isn't it before, you know, do we all sit here panicking thinking, well, I'll have no staff next week because they're all going to be, I'm working there. I think there will naturally be more competition for good people. But again, staying with my optimistic, positive hat on, which is the only one I put on when I get up in the morning, what it will do, it will draw many more people into our industry. And I think having been in the industry from going back to the first conversation by the age of 12, one of the most challenging things is how our industry is seen to the outside or it's not a proper job or it's not a proper thing.
Duncan Phillips
And well, I did that as a snap, don't get me wrong, we deliver a massive part of work entrance. So the first jobs that people get are in our industry. So important as a stepping stone. But I think what Universal will do, it will put a spotlight on. This isn't just a stepping stone creek. Think about this as your lifelong career. I'm lucky enough to have been in it, you're lucky enough to have been in it. And all the people in the industry, we talk about how lucky we are to be in it, but it is still a really difficult sell to people looking at, okay, where do I go? Do I go down traditional routes?
Duncan Phillips
Do I go down a traditional, you know, employment route which was in many sitting out there or actually, I'm going to be in the leisure, attraction, entertainment industry. This is, for me, this is a really big opportunity. So I think there will be pressure for those 8,000 people on some in this region, but I think the underlying impact will be drawing more people who wouldn't have considered a career with us in our sector. When I say us, Andy, I'm talking about you and I, the industry that we love and we work in. I think you'll pull more people into it, so it will generate more people joining this industry and choosing this industry as the way forward.
Duncan Phillips
I was only talking with some family, friends at an event, how they're looking at and thinking, gosh, that's going to be great for, for their children who are looking more creative careers. And there is a huge employer that's going to be employing lots of people in the creative industries sitting on their doorstep. You know, they wouldn't have had that opportunity before, so they wouldn't be in the employment market. And we do have, you know, three or four years to be able to start and get that prepared. But, you know, through talking to, you know, colleges within Milton Keynes, within Bedford, within Northampton, and where those colleges start and go, with the onset of this coming, is going to some extent, I think, increase the amount of people looking at careers in our industry.
Duncan Phillips
So that 8,000, in the case of 8,000 people coming out of other jobs elsewhere, I think a lot of it is going to be created by the natural wave that's going to occur.
Andy Povey
I couldn't agree more, Duncan. I mean, it's the same conversation almost as it is about visitation. Yeah, yeah. It's improving the perception of the industry, increasing the opportunities available to everyone. So bring it on. I can't, I can't wait. Well, a number of years ago there was a whole phrase of destination marketing, wasn't it? And this was how parks in Florida or in Orlando work together, how parks in the Middle East, Dubai should work together. We're turning the ark. You've heard it here first, listeners from Duncan into a destination. If you're an attraction in that area, how do you get involved?
Duncan Phillips
Well, I think the first thing is that there are destination DMOs, there are DMOs or there are tourist organizations or attraction groups in pretty much all those areas. And I think the first point of contact would be to reach out to them first because they are feeders into it. I don't think that there is yet one defined route that it's going to be going up to, and I'm hoping just in the fullness of time, that the leaders of the regions that are around us see fit to work together, not apart to have something higher up. But in answer to your question, I think if you're an attraction and you're in the region, now is the time to get joined up with that body. And I know it's terribly difficult because it's another cost because normally it comes with a membership fee.
Duncan Phillips
Normally it comes with a, oh, well, I've got to pay, I don't know, from 250 to 2,500 pounds a year to pay, be part of that association. But what do I get from that? And I say this a lot to people about BALPA and about other organizations that it's a really difficult thing to define purely on, well, what have I got for my £250 or two and a half thousand pounds? But I think if you ain't in it, you can't win it. It's an old saying. My recommendation is this is an opportunity that to fully get. You've got to be part of it. If you're not part of it, you're always going to be on the edge of it, trying to either grab some of its limelight as it goes. Now, that is not by any means to anyone listening to this.
Duncan Phillips
Oh, you've just got to sign up to it, otherwise you'll finish. You haven't. But it should be probably the first thing on you to look and say, actually, what's my local organization? Now is my time to be part of that. Because actually something is coming down the line which has got real tangible benefits in the future. So therefore actually start working with them sort of now. And that could be the organizations from Cambridge to Oxford to Bedford to Northampton to Milton Keynes, dmk, obviously, with my slightly biased hat on here in Milton.
Andy Povey
Keynes, stop thinking about it and start.
Duncan Phillips
Planning and then get involved and therefore come together ultimately to reap the proper benefit. The more people work together, the more benefit I think that comes. And I think that's. There's a hidden bit in there, isn't it? You know, stop looking down at your own doing. Look up to what actually you can do together with other things. And, you know, it comes at a tough time, you know, our sector is facing some strong headwinds, you know, and it's not pleasant, it's not all plain sailing. It's hard work. And I think in my time in the industry, gosh, what, 27 years or something even worse than that. 30, Whatever it is, it's a long, long time.
Duncan Phillips
I don't think I've ever seen just how hard things can because you've got a, you know, one wave after another is hitting you and it can be anything from, you know, we've had the COVID we've got back on our feet. We've then had lots of changes occurring to our how people interact with our businesses, how they buy access to our businesses and then you're hit with, you know, global shocks and you know, it'd be just nice to have non for a little while. Can we just have a bit of calm water to get on with things? But there is one coming and it's called Universal and I think, you know, don't see that as another wave coming at you, see it as an opportunity and boy, we need it at the minute because it's hard work out there.
Andy Povey
So we've talked about the impact on the other attractions and as an attraction operator, we've talked about the impact on the staff and our colleagues and people that work in the industry. What's going to be the impact on guest expectations?
Duncan Phillips
Ultimately, yes, guest expectations grow. But I think sometimes you can underestimate how clever our guests are. They will realize the difference between going to Universal or going to a local theme park. And you know that our consumers, not an intelligent, they know that. But what they will absolutely determine is how they're treated and how their experience is relayed by the people, staff and the teams that are in there. There's an acceptance that I think if you're choosing a local attraction for a day out, you're not going to get the latest IP branded 15 spin roller coaster that's cost 22 million pounds. You know, our consumer knows that. But where the expectation level will change is actually how you're treated as a visitor to that experience. That doesn't cost 22 million pounds to change.
Duncan Phillips
That's about us educating our staff, training our staff to how they perceive the visitor, how they want that visitor to feel. Because the consumer's expectation of how they're handled and how they're dealt with will change. That's the part that's going to change. I think the consumer is intelligent enough to realize that if they're going to a regional park for the day, they're not going to ride the latest branded IP experience that's going to blow them away. But what they are going to expect is that they're treated well, that the product is actually available to them. They can buy a ticket, they can get a bit of food and a bit of things of somebody who can communicate well with them and make them feel special, make them feel welcome. I think that's going to be the.
Duncan Phillips
That's where the expectations, I think are going to change because we can't suddenly crack in, you know, a few billion quids worth investment into small regional attractions. What we can do is we can make sure that, you know, we learn and we see that when the expectation of the consumer goes up, we match it.
Andy Povey
So is this almost then a call for the welcome hosts training that was rolled out in 2012 with the Olympics. Is there a challenge or an opportunity for us as an industry?
Duncan Phillips
Yeah, and I think that's going to come naturally. I don't think you have to roll anything out, Andy. I think it's coming because that's the danger. So we've not talked about the danger. The dangers. If I actually. You don't really regard it as an opportunity and you say, well, we're just going to keep doing what we're doing. Some attractions could get left behind because they haven't understood the expectation of the consumer. And it isn't about how big your ride is or how snazzy your IP is. It's going to come down to how well you deliver your service.
Andy Povey
Parking Universal. Ignoring everything that we've talked about so far, what would be your one piece of advice to a small independent attraction operator listening to this right now, looking at. We've got the summer coming in a couple of weeks time. What should the. An attraction operator now be looking at for the rest of 2026?
Duncan Phillips
For all attraction operators, the thing that you need to be doing right now is focus on the near ground and the near ground two or three weeks off the summer holiday is. Is the summer holiday vat reduction that we're very thankful for, but we obviously need. It brings a lot of work involved in it. It's not. It's not a straightforward thing for many operators to have to figure out and get in and how to do it and it's not easy and I think probably there's nothing. Gosh, what advice? I wouldn't get any advice. Right, start now. Actually you've got to be started about thinking about 2027. 7. Because right now you've actually got to get through. Sorry to be. I think you've got to get through 2026 because if you don't get through 2026 and do well here, there is no 2026.
Duncan Phillips
And, you know, it's always my advice is to make sure that you. What's the old saying is it look after your knitting, so you've got to get that bit right first and then actually start. And yes, probably even put together some form of strategy that says actually, you know, find out what we're really good at as a business, find out actually what our unique elements are that differentiate us from that offer that's coming at Universal and really what makes us different and start thinking about that now. So that then actually from 2027 onwards, the focus is making sure that you know who you are and what you do that's different. To be able to support wider visits to this region or wider visits to the uk.
Duncan Phillips
And I think that's probably the piece of advice I would give at the minute, is start thinking about what your unique element is and what differentiates you rather than what can I do to compete with this. This juggernaut coming down the road.
Andy Povey
Love it. So spend the summer considering who you are.
Duncan Phillips
Yeah. And I think just understanding who you are. You know, there's nothing better than a bit of a challenge to figure out who you are. You know, we've all been there and, you know, I think that's this summer is to really figure out who we are and what we want to be and get that bit right first. Probably then start looking at homing that together over the next three year strategy. But at the same time, start and understand that you can create partnerships with others in your region and look out for those.
Andy Povey
And obviously we've got possibly the attraction, world's biggest talking shop, coming to London in September.
Duncan Phillips
We're fantastic. We're hosting IAAPA in September. It seems to come around rather quickly, Andy, for some of us that are a bit more old in the tooth, say gracky, it's only just been. It was, you know, four years ago, I think they were here, which is actually when I was chairman of alpa, when welcomed IAAPA to London. And what a great talking shop. What a great.
Andy Povey
Absolutely. So consider where you are and then take it to your industry association events and talk to your colleagues, Talk to the other people.
Duncan Phillips
That would be a starting point. But what do I know?
Andy Povey
A big thank you from me to Duncan for his time. I hope you found that as interesting and thought provoking as I did. As ever, if you've enjoyed this week's episode of Skip the Queue, please like or even leave us a recommendation on your podcast app. It really helps people to find and means that we can continue to bring you great chats like this one.
Today's episode was brought to you by Merac. It has been carefully edited by Steve Pollen. Production and scripting were by Sami and Emily from Plaster and coordination and socials by Wenalyn back at Skip the Queue HQ. I've been your host, Andy Povey and until next time, goodbye.