Epic Universe was one of the most anticipated theme park developments in decades, and at the heart of it sits one of its most talked-about lands: Dark Universe. In this episode, we dive deep into the creation of this shadowy, immersive world inspired by Universal’s legendary monsters. We’re joined by Greg Hall from Universal Creative and Max MacEwan from Framestore, the media partner who helped bring Dark Universe to life. From creative risks and resurrecting iconic characters, to emotional pacing, technical integration and hidden Easter eggs, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone who cares about the future of guest experience.
In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey speaks with Greg Hall from Universal Creative and Max MacEwan from Framestore about the creation of Dark Universe at Universal Epic Universe. Inspired by the legacy of Universal Monsters, they explore how storytelling, technology, and psychology come together to create a thrilling yet re-rideable attraction. The conversation highlights the importance of anticipation, immersive queue design, creative collaboration, and balancing innovation with guest experience.
Maximilian Guy McNair MacEwan, Head of Strategic Partnerships - Immersive of Framestore
Gregory Hall, Assistant Director, Creative Design of Universal Creative
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Credits:
Written by Emily Burrows (Plaster)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Greg Hall: We wanted to ride fun so that you can reride it. You know, we don't want to scare them to a point where it's like, "Oh, that was scary. Never again."
Max MacEwan: Anticipation takes time to build. For me personally, I've never been as scared of an attraction, a roller coaster, a thrill ride, anything like that as I was in the queue. Because the unknown makes your mind just build it up and up. And even if you know it's not going to be that scary, that's the chance to do it.
Andy Povey: Epic Universe was one of the most anticipated theme park developments in decades. And at the heart of it sits one of its most talked about bands, the Dark Universe.
Greg Hall: Epic Universe is the most ambitious theme park I've ever worked on.
Andy Povey: In this episode, we dive deep into the creation of this shadowy, immersive world inspired by Universal's legendary monsters.
Greg Hall: We get to work with the best monsters that we can possibe.
Andy Povey: We're joined by Greg Hall from Universal Creative.
Greg Hall: So there's a lot of techniques from cinema that we use to translate and influence what we're doing in real life.
Andy Povey: Max MacEwan from Framestore Media partner who helped bring Dark Universe to life.
Max MacEaen: Technically impossible, but we'll trust that we can get there with really interesting techniques.
Andy Povey: From creative risks and resurrecting iconic characters to emotional pacing, technical integration, and hidden Easter eggs, this conversation is a must listen for anyone who cares about the future guest experience.
Greg Hall: Focusing on something that you can only do here and is worth it is always a win.
Max MacEwan: That's what you're talking about, making the world a better place, right?
Greg Hall: It's getting people out, get people outside. Let's do it. You know, it is.
Max MacEwan: It's a really cool thing to do.
Andy Povey: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast made specifically for people working in and with visitor attractions. Brought to you by Merac. I'm your host, Andy Povey.
Greg Hall: My name is Gregory Hall. I'm the assistant director of creative design for Universal Creative. So I'm part of a team of geniuses that design theme park attractions around the world for Universal. So we have theme park in Japan, Singapore, Hollywood, Asia, and just new parts that we're building. So my team is actually responsible for the traction design. I've also created directed Monsters Unchained, the Frankenstein Experiment, Jurassic World, Velocicoaster, designed vehicles for Hagrid's Magical Creatures, Mo Bike Adventure, an Incredible Hulk coaster, worked on Transformers. So I've been around the industry for a very long time.
Andy Povey: I was going to say, you've been doing this for a while.
Greg Hall: Right? I feel like I'm getting older. The longer I talk, I'm like, oh, my. Wow, it's been that long. So it's just amazing opportunities in this industry that, you know, I think I would never known until I was here that I was able to just work on all these passions that I've always had growing up, from ride vehicles to roller coasters to building designs. There's just so many opportunities to be the best creative that you could possibly be here, you know. So it's been. It's been amazing.
Andy Povey: It sounds like a great story. That might be another episode.
Greg Hall: It's a movie, actually.
Andy Povey: Yeah. Max, your turn.
Max MacEwan: Yeah, sure. That's not going to sound quite as impressive, but. So, yeah, I'm Max. I'm an executive producer and our head of partnerships in the immersive team at Framestore, where visual effects media production company who are lucky enough to work with Greg and his team at Universal, among many others. I think that hopefully that sells us a little short, that media production company title, because Framestore cross over a lot of different genres and we're involved in a lot of different ways on Projects. But Framestore itself has been around 40 years. It's a really long standing company and been doing some amazing feature films like Gravity and all those sorts of things. We come from that heritage.
Max MacEwan: Me, myself, I. You can probably tell from the accent, I'm not from the UK where Framestore is based, but I'm from New Zealand and I started in feature films a long time ago. Now working in that kind of area and shift about 10 years ago across to attractions and immersive projects because films to me felt a little restrictive. They're really distilled down to one single person's vision. And this industry of immersive attraction design and experiential stuff, it really, it's quite democratic. People can experience those attractions in loads and loads of different ways. And so you have to design for that. And it means that everybody who's creating those attractions has to really understand the vision and that's what attracted me to it. So, yeah, that's who I am and what I do.
Max MacEwan: And I come from a production background, so a lot of sort of management and organisation of these projects and making sure they kind of come to fruition.
Andy Povey: So, yeah, so I'm literally joined by a couple of creative giants from the industry this afternoon. I'm not worthy, but welcome to the podcast, guys. Welcome.
Max MacEwan: Thank you.
Greg Hall: Yeah, great to hear you.
Andy Povey: So we're here to talk about Dark Universe Epic for those of our listeners at home who haven't been able to experience Epic yet. And I include myself as one of them because I didn't make it out to Orlando this last year for IAAPA. Yeah, I'll fix that. This year. Greg, as the Universal representative, can you introduce us to Epic?
Greg Hall: Oh, Epic Universe is the most ambitious theme park I ever worked on. There's just high class theming from the moment you step in and you're greeted by just amazing portals to each and every land. I mean, we have Super Nintendo World, we have Dark Universe, we have the Wizarding World, not the Wizarding World, but we have the Ministry of Magic, we have, you know, and how to Train Your Dragon in the Celestial park as well. So there's so many great opportunities and new introductions to new worlds for our guests. And even like the storytelling from the moment you walk in. Even the concrete on the ground is telling a storey from like the food that you eat. There's so much like.
Greg Hall: I love talking to the food and beverage team because just the amount of passion they put in just designing the food and relating it to the story that's in the attraction. It's all connected and you can only get it here. So it's really showing what we can do as, you know, humans and designing a new world within the world we already live in.
Andy Povey: It sounds incredible. I've heard so many very positive reviews about the place. I cannot wait to go and experience it. And if you're in Orlando in November, Greg, I'll give you a call.
Greg Hall: Let me know, I know somebody.
Max MacEwan: Well, I think what's extra cool about Epic Universe as well is the way the. The different lands complement each other. They feel very different and they feel very unique and they just kind of pair so well together, you know, some are vast and like really huge and others are kind of claustrophobic and small. I really like that about it, you know, and they've all got take on it. So that's. That's great. Yeah.
Andy Povey: So specifically we want to talk about Dark Universe because that was where you worked together. Max, is Dark Universe one of the small, scary, intimate ones or is that
Max MacEwan: It's a little more claustrophobic? I wouldn't call it small, but it's. It's definitely like got those sort of those winding alleyway feelings to it. It's kind of a bit eerie, you know. You want that from Darkness, don't you? So.
Andy Povey: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Max MacEwan: So that is where we work together. Greg, I don't know if you want to introduce.
Greg Hall: The Dark Universe? Man, that was a dream project. So Max and I met on World Velocico. That was like one of the most fun projects to ever work on. And I mean, after that, I think it won Best Roller Coaster five years in a row, you know, and the amount of passion that the team put into that roller coaster made sure that it felt unique and felt special and modern was so. It translated and the audience loved it. So leaving that level of kind of energy was like, what do you do next? You know, and. And this was next. This made sense. It was a next evolution and what we could do with a thrilling audience. And we get. Have our unique opportunity to create something that doesn't have a movie to it already, you know.
Greg Hall: You know, this is the ultimate challenge as designers, media content creators, to establish a new design language and storytelling that will influence other mediums after. And the Dark Universe we get, we could be ourselves, but also understand the legacy of the original Universal pictures, you know, understand there's mystery to it and build up that you get from the movie background of like you know, you just can't have stuff jumping out all the time. You have to have build up. You can't scare people more than scared themselves. So there's a lot of techniques from cinema that we use to translate and influence what we're doing in the real life. And it's a psychology and design that we implement doing that and then you know, just thrill, you know, we have to have monsters in our monsters world and you know, get to work with the.
Greg Hall: The best monsters that we can possible. So yeah, it was, you know, going off of one amazing partnership in the trash in going to another one. And people wish for that.
Max MacEwan: I mean, you're absolutely right what you're saying there, Greg, about feeling like. I mean, at least we felt this way working with you guys on it was a real privilege to be able to take something that has a deep legacy and people love it and they've got their own attachment, their own story that they're connected to, but also like create something new and not necessarily just be repurposing something. You were creating an entirely new aspect to that world and that felt like this has got. You got a lot of responsibility in this, but also the opportunity is huge, you know, so that was really, I mean, as you say, dream project. When this came through the door, it was just, yeah.
Greg Hall: Couldn't ask for more. Honestly. It's like. It's pretty awesome. Yeah.
Andy Povey: So how do you distil that all down? I mean, you've got a vast back catalogue. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hart goes back to 1913. So how do you take that whole Universal Monsters group and turn that into an attraction?
Greg Hall: Well, we have the unique and, you know, job, and I didn't want to call it a job that what are we doing is a. It's a job. We have a job.
Andy Povey: It's an opportunity.
Greg Hall: So we have a unique role where we have to. One day you're working one intellectual property and then that's day you're working on another. And you have to understand what the essence of it is in order to influence what you're designing or what media or content you're creating. So, you know, we have to be aware of, you know, what made the original Monsters films from Universal Pictures successful. And we want to make sure we don't ignore any of that. We have a great partnership with them.
Greg Hall: So when Max and I were, you know, developing the media and even the characters for the Trash in, were still partnering with all of our Universal Pictures partners and to make sure that they were there at every step of the way, and that we're staying true to the core principles while introducing it to a new legacy of people.
Max MacEwan: Yeah, I remember you bringing to us right at the beginning. The first meeting we had on the project. Kicking it off was just the first piece of information you put forward, was here are the pillars of what's important for this project. Here are the tenants that we need to work into and just keep those at the centre of everything we're doing throughout this. And, you know, it's that legacy, that history that the monsters have. It's the anticipation and the thrill.
Greg Hall: And that's what I do. What's the DNA? So the monsters was legacy, mystery and thrill and Jurassic, when we worked on that, it was thrill, teeth and environment. So, you know, when you could take something complicated and simplify it, that's one of the most powerful superpowers you could achieve as a director of a team that's innovating something because people see something different when you're describing something that's never been done before. Everyone's important. Everyone's important. You know, the engineers, architects, the VFS, artists, you know, the designers. And, you know, they are important to their own role. Like, they're like the top of their own worlds and departments. So explaining something to architect about pistol pitch or colour calibration or, you know, black levels and an LED monitor, they wouldn't know that.
Greg Hall: So, how do you simplify it so they understand what they're designing and building in their facility has to complement this LED panel or whatever technology we're talking about.
Andy Povey: No, that makes total sense.
Greg Hall: And Master's team working with them, they have a lot of experience with that as well. So, you know, that's what makes it unique than them just working on the film is that they do have more experience integrating stuff with other mediums. You know, projection, mapping, how. How the surface of it works, what level of rock. You know, we're projecting on a rock doesn't need to be smooth, doesn't need to be more angular. How does it, you know, bounce light? You know, they have understanding of beyond what's trapped on our screens right now. And, you know, that's what impacts people the most, is what's beyond the screen.
Max MacEwan: Yeah, I mean, ultimately, the attraction lives in the real world, guests going to experience in the real world. So, yeah, when you're creating kind of media, it's very tempting to get sucked into looking at it on a screen of some sort. And, you know, it won't necessarily end up on that screen. So we try and make sure we're always thinking about that guest experience, the core of it. So working really closely with all the lighting teams, the engineering teams, all of that stuff.
Andy Povey: So, Max, it's going to be really interesting taking that sort of legacy effects element from films, sort of 50, 60, 70 years old, and then reinterpreting that and representing that it's the same story but a completely different presentation.
Max MacEwan: Yeah. I mean, it can be a real challenge to find the balance between staying true to what that original was, but also feeling like, you know, guests go there to have a new experience and they want to have something that they walk away with that's unique and it's not, you know, necessarily watching the old movies. They want to feel like this is something they can only experience there in the park and it's brand new and all that sort of things. So I think what we did is, as part of our process, we always assign to projects like this, we assign our own internal creative director and our VFX supervisors to help support Greg and just be kind of facilitate.
Max MacEwan: Take the feedback he's giving, take those kind of foundational elements he's passing on to us and reinterpret that feedback and those kind of. That guidance and take that and go, okay, how do we translate that into media that's going to end up on screen? And, you know, that creative director on our side and those leadership people in kind of anim supervisor roles and all of those sorts of roles, they. All their homework at the very beginning of the project was to go back and rewatch all of the iterations that we could track down of these IP of, you know, old Dracula films and all of this stuff. So they were fully across the iterations of how this has been realised before. And then they would just find new ideas to inject into it.
Max MacEwan: And obviously, Greg's kind of leading the charge late, taking the lead with that. But our team are sort of following through, bringing ideas to the table, going, hey, what about if we took this element and then brought it to life in this way?
Greg Hall: Yeah, it's an extended team and that's how you want to work. We're in this industry so that we make awesome things and make the world better, and we'll hope we're making the world better. And so, you know, we just. You want to work with people with the same vision, the same energy, and, you know, in the end, the guests care about what's happening. To them on the attraction. And that's what they should be caring about. It's about them, it's not about us. And so everyone knowing what the bigger picture is, and we just really hope hands lock in and. And make something amazing. That's, you know, that's all you can ask for.
Andy Povey: There's this conflict almost between technology and storytelling. There's two different parts, the creative and the technology element. And bringing together is where we achieve excellence. That's that bit in the middle. What mindset do you need to bring as a creative or a technologist to that partnership? How do you make that partnership work? What's a good element of that partnership? What's going to make it fail?
Greg Hall: Oh, wow. Oh, that's really good questions. Never even asked that question. Heard that question before. So I would say, like, as far as a good partnership with the team in general, it's just knowing that everything is knowing the bigger picture and the actual goal. You have to remind yourself because, you know, these projects take longer than the normal project. In other industries, it might take years to make, three years, four or five years to make. So just remind, like a reminder of what we're doing is for and what the overall expectations we're trying to hit is important because, you know, in the end, the guests don't understand limitations on how hard it was.
Greg Hall: You can't stand next to the attraction and say, were going to do this, but darn it, we're going to do this because of this reason, there's millions of people. So with everyone understanding that, you know, in the end, all of our names are on this project and our families will be on it. You know, we'll be on it. You know, that's the big picture. And it's not about. We just, we're just finishing something. This thing's going to last for 20 years or more. This thing is going to make memories for people. And that awareness and I think that really connects people and makes them go above and beyond in order to create something that we haven't seen before.
Andy Povey: That's really valid, Greg. I mean, is key to virtually every project you work in, isn't it? You know, understand the main objective and keep coming back to that.
Max MacEwan: I guess it's knowing when technology can be used, knowing when to hold back from using them.
Greg Hall: That's true.
Max MacEwan: Because it's like being more restrained can actually have a bigger impact. And also, like, it's kind of a cheesy way to approach it. But I think for me what struck out when you asked that question and is, like, the trust in the expertise. Because, like, I'm trying to think of a good example of it, but, like, sometimes you got to take. When you're doing an attraction like this, where there's elements that are never done and they're taking a risk, you got to take a look at that and go, do we trust that we have the expertise to get there?
Andy Povey: So you're creating this sort of multifaceted, really safe space where people are comfortable to experiment.
Greg Hall: Yeah, it's an interesting Dr. Victoria, she's a great granddaughter of Henry Frankenstein. So she, her name is Victoria Frankenstein. She's new resident in the manor and she's there to prove to the world she wants to see others where others felt and that's controlling the monsters. So throughout the entire queue, which is honestly like, I think one of the best cues of all time, you've literally, you start off in a sense of place. You're in the Henry Frankenstein manner that's been around for centuries. But you realise she's the new resident, she's moved there and she's studying his work. But the way we story told how she's studying his work, like every room has something amazing in it that's a centrepiece, like there's a part that there's a Frankenstein original and Frankenstein monster that's in a tank and is scanning the body.
Greg Hall: And how do we tell our audience that she's studying this original Frankenstein monster with her new technology on top of this legacy 100 year old, you know, architecture. So we had this new technology on top of the Legacy, but it's scanning the Frankenstein monster with this transparent screen and all the data is being read. And you know, we worked with Max's team to help develop, you know, the scan that's synced with the movement of the screen. Then we worked with real morticians to have the data on their. What information would actually be collected from this device that's scanning deceased body.
Greg Hall: Then we worked with the audio team to make sure that the sound was not just like this high tech stuff that you would hear from a Sci Fi IP, but it still has this analogue rich sound that's unique to the strip fading design language that's surrounding all of our guests while they're in this room. So there's so many different people working together to create a new design language and sticking to these rules that we establish. And then it creates something magical.
Andy Povey: Something really special.
Max MacEwan: Layering all the elements up together, just everything about that space. I mean, even just from a media standpoint, like perspective. You know, we had a transparent LED screen. There's a figure behind it that the screen is moving up and down on these motors and, you know, the timing of what's displayed on the screen has to match what's behind it in real life. And how do you figure out where the position of the screen is and, you know, tell that storey and all that sort of thing. And it's just, it's very complicated to bring that all together. But, you know, it just means you have to work really closely. It's a cool opportunity because it was a visual effects team. You wouldn't typically work with engineers and prop make it the stuff as closely.
Max MacEwan: And so we get to meet all these people who are just a totally, wildly different world that they live in, where their head is at. And once you get open to it, you sort of. It empowers you, it gives you more knowledge about what the overall vision, what everybody's doing. And it helps you build little elements a little easier from what they're doing into what you're creating as well, which is really cool. So they don't feel disjointed. That's when you fail, is when things feel individual pieces that are stuck together.
Greg Hall: Every single thing has to work together. So we have all these different disciplines. They in a way, speak a different language. We all, you know, communicate in English, but the way we interpret things is differently based off of the worlds that we're coming from. So. But everything's important because the moment one thing is out of sync and you know, the audience can perceive that, then they're taking out the entire immersion. And that's what we never want to happen. We want them to think this was real or the emotion of it at least, so that, you know, they have a memory that they only get in our attraction.
Andy Povey: That sounds incredible. Max, you mentioned Easter eggs. What is your favourite that you've been able to insert?
Max MacEwan: Well, look, so I mean there's a lot of nods all through the land. So Greg probably has like a million that have been injected in there. I know that with the costume design they're like subtle nods to things. I would say it's in plain sight, so it's less of an Easter egg and it's more sort of right there in your face. But one opportunity that we had to kind of tell a different storey in the world that linked to everything else was the safety film. That was like a particularly cool thing because safety films, you know, the way they're typically designed, they have to be functional, they have to be clear in the message. But because we've worked on a lot of attractions at our team and you know, you see them as an opportunity to make something really cool. It should feel like the same world, but it should feel like the vision style and enriching the world so. Greg was really up for doing some craxy stuff with that.
Greg Hall: Yeah, no, I think it's one of the best. I think it is the best safety film I ever seen ever. Period.
Andy Povey: I mean, that's quite an accolade, isn't it?
Greg Hall: Yeah, the reactions when people see it, like. I've never seen anyone clap for safety films, but it was really good.
Max MacEwan: It's cool. I mean. Yeah, it plays with scale. It goes down to a small size. Really cool. So I won't go into detail, but it's, you know, that was a really nice way to pick one of the characters and say, how can we tell another storyy for this character? Take this opportunity, you know.
Greg Hall: And that's what you need. You need the same energy for the safety video as the same energy as the large Dracula character. Threading the ride vehicle for the people you need. And that's, you know, guests appreciate that.
Andy Povey: So every element's contributing. I get that completely. And it's a common theme amongst a lot of the conversations we have. You don't want to show the guests what goes into the sausage, I suppose.
Greg Hall: Yeah, that's what we say here in America, too.
Andy Povey: I stole it completely. Your side of The Atlantic. Correct. So let's talk about horror. Let's talk about the psychology behind horror. I don't want to be in an environment where I'm going to be scared out of my pants with this for two hours.
Max MacEwan: Don't go on this ride then.
Andy Povey: How do you plan that journey? How do you manage the different peaks and troughs, that whole experience? How do you design for it?
Greg Hall: Oh, so the pacing, that's pretty cool question. You know, there's a quote that you can't scare people more than they can scare themselves. And yeah, that quote was said by a famous philosopher named Gregory Hall. I know that guy.
Andy Povey: It's only I thought it was Max's because he said it just before you came on. Greg,
Greg Hall: That's the second famous philosopher. That guy's cool, too. Okay, hang on. No, that was just something like. Like were talking about mystery and thrills. Like, man, we wanted to ride fun so that you can rewrite it. You know, we don't want to scare them to a point where it's like, oh, that was scary. Never again. And, you know, no one comes back. And we took a bet, we took a kind of bet in a way of how were approaching it, where it was like, okay, the ride's fun, re rideable, comfortable, engaging, immersive, and the cues more intimidating so that they feel like they accomplished something at the end of the ride, like they overcame their fear. And it's like, okay, like, I was terrified. But that was so fun. I want to do it again.
Greg Hall: And from the results, it seems like that bet worked. You know, so many people ride this attraction over and over again. I know people wrote it song like, seven hours straight, and I'm like, wow, you really like it. And then I hope that means you like it. And so, you know, in that it also something, like I said, it takes back from lessons learned from, you know, watching these films and the storytelling of the. The historic monsters films and books and legacies and things like that. It's like, all right, you know, we just don't want to have stuff jumping out at people all the time. There's people with their kids, you know, their parents. There's just people of all different demographics. You know, we want to make sure they have a good time no matter who they are.
Greg Hall: And, you know, we have a fun experience. We immerse them into the story. We introduce them to things that they've never seen before, but that makes sense to the storey we're telling. And they hopefully appreciate it.
Andy Povey: Fantastic.
Max MacEwan: Like, from a logistical standpoint as well. It makes a lot of sense, I think, you know, because the queue, you've got time to sort of build that anticipation, and anticipation takes time to build. I think, like, for me personally, I've never been as scared of an attraction, a roller coaster, a thrill ride, anything like that as I was in the queue. Like, when I'm on it, I'm having fun, you know, and so that's when you fear. And. And I find that, you know, I've been on all of the coasters. I don't know how many I've been on, but most of them. And the thing is, I still get nervous going on a ride I've never been on before, because the unknown makes your mind just build it up and up and you go.
Max MacEwan: And even if you know it's not going to be that scary, that's the chance to do it. And so that cue is so important. And then you make the attraction itself faster. There's a massive payoff from a, you know, a logistical point of view where that. That rider is really functional. You're getting a lot of people through it, and people don't, you know, you don't have this backlog of hours and hours of waiting and standing there and losing that anticipation, dropping it entirely. Because now you're looking at your watch, you're taken out of the attraction, you're taken out of the world, and you're now just. You're just yourself bored. You know what I mean?
Greg Hall: Yeah, definitely. I think we really learned that from working on roller coasters. You know, what's the scariest part of a roller coaster is when you're cranking up, it's before even begins. So taking that psychology on the ride that doesn't have a giant roller coaster drop at the beginning, it's like, how do you take that psychology and still have that buildup? So they feel like, oh, man. Like now, I didn't know I liked roller coasters. You know, it's like you know, you've been afraid of that giant hill the whole time, that you never got one, but then you got on and you're. It's fun. So it's the same type of kind of psychology with a different platform. Yeah.
Andy Povey: No. Fantastic. So having built the venue, built the attraction, built epic, what was the thing that surprised you most in the way that guests are interacting and experiencing everything you put together?
Max MacEwan: Well, I would say I was surprised because we loved him, but we didn't know I didn't know how popular Igor was going to be.
Greg Hall: Oh, Igor.
Max MacEwan: He's the sleeper hit. So Igor is Victoria Frankenstein's assistant. And amazing character design, amazing performance by the actor who drove a lot of that animation and inspired everything that we created on screens, which is the version that you'll see on the attraction. But he's just such a hit. Right.
Greg Hall: People love Igor.
Max MacEwan: That was. I didn't expect him to be the star in a certain sense.
Andy Povey: And what is it about Igor that makes him a star, do you think, Max, how can you recreate that in the next project?
Max MacEwan: I mean, it's. I feel like he's creepy, he's playful, he's psychotic. Like, what's not to love?
Greg Hall: Mass relates to him.
Max MacEwan: Yeah, exactly.
Max MacEwan: He's like. He's me, twins.
Andy Povey: Is your analyst going to be listening to this one?
Greg Hall: Creepy, playful, psychotic.
Max MacEwan: Yeah.
Greg Hall: Yes. What's not to relate to?
Max MacEwan: That's true. You got me.
Andy Povey: Greg, what was the most telling guest experience, feedback or comment from you or for you?
Greg Hall: Oh, man. Like, I'm still stuck on Igor, because I think what Igor did as well is he broke the mould of what people are used to seeing in theme parks. I think that character is edgy in a way. He's more modern, and we got to win in a space that we can only do here with our audience. So I think Igor really represented that and people really gravitating to. Yes. I want someone to say these things that are, like, just, like, unexpected and, you know, make fun of this. I think it's, you know, this is an amazing character that, you know, got introduced to the world. I think other than Igor, in a way, everything that I was hoping that happened definitely happened, but then it happened even more when there's.
Greg Hall: I see, like, communities of people who are really bonding over the trash. And there's people who remembered us from Velocicoaster as well, and they thought, you know, they're like, hey, you know, I was at the opening of Velocicoaster, and now I'm at the opening of this, and weren't sure, you know, what y' all were going to do after that, but I really did it here. So, like, even people remembering the amount of effort and work that we did there from years ago, and.
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah.
Greg Hall: And acknowledging that, you know, I'm just here to let you know you did it again. That's priceless. That's priceless.
Andy Povey: I can imagine what kind of accolade for you personally. You've got a Fan base.
Greg Hall: Yeah, that's priceless. It's like a complete stranger just going out of the way to say, hey, I see the amount of work that you put in. I respect you for that. I want to let you know that, you know, I see it. In case no one else has told you this and you know, that's what we're doing, I'm doing for them. So just the confirmation that they are appreciating is it's amazing. You know, we're in a very niche industry.
Andy Povey: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.
Greg Hall: And it's unheard of to hear things like that. You know, people see the product but they don't really, you know, have the opportunity to talk to the people who worked on it. So for, you know, this new world that we're in with, you know, technology, like, you know, they can, you know, sometimes see us in the park and say, hey, you know, you guys did a good job, you know, all right, I'm gonna go over there and get your own now.
Andy Povey: So what's coming next? Now obviously we don't want to talk, we can't talk about the specific projects, but looking at what's coming up in the industry, looking at what's coming up in technology, what new things are available, what new stories and interpretation can we look forward to?
Greg Hall: I feel like with Epic Opening, that was all about, you know, like high level theming, that was all about world class immersion and storytelling. And now that's open, we're seeing how people adapt to that and learning from it. And we have like amazing things opening up in new ventures outside of even what's going on here in Orlando that are happening around United States and beyond. Where there's expansions, there's new attractions. In Hollywood, we have, we just announced, you know, we're opening soon the park in Texas for the kids park. So there's just new ventures expanding that we're just going to have new opportunities that never existed before and learn from that. And I think it introduces a lot of the Universal brand and theme parks to new generations.
Greg Hall: So I think it's going to be a evolution to a generational culture, especially with the kids park and how they're going to evolve into the monsters and chain type attractions and things like that. That's going to be really new and focused on this year and beyond.
Andy Povey: Fantastic. What about you, Max? What are you seeing? What are you excited about? In the world of tech and delivery?
Max MacEwan: There's a lot of new ways to interact. Obviously, that's a big thing, but I personally find the different ways you can play with displaying things on canvases and that might be something that isn't necessarily. It doesn't feel like a screen, it feels more like something tactile you're interacting with. Personally, I find that is there's new technology, you know, flexible screens that can roll up, that can shift shape, shift in all sorts of different interesting ways and can display content in ways you couldn't before.
Max MacEwan: You know, richness of colour, brightness, darkness, these sorts of things there, you know, they seem sort of understated in what they can do, but when you put them all together in new interesting ways, you get something really spectacular, you know, truly believable hologram like effect, you know, that sort of stuff which has been sci fi up until now. And there are ways to now do it in a way that to the everyday person entering the park, you know, it becomes believable in a new way. You constantly have to, you know, raise the stakes with the audiences because people quickly, what happens, how illusion works and then it becomes not an illusion anymore. It becomes a tech demo that they've seen before somewhere. So, yeah, it's an arms race in that sense.
Andy Povey: And I certainly is.
Greg Hall: Yeah, yeah, the bar is higher than it's ever been in history. I definitely say that.
Max MacEwan: Yeah, for sure. And then like on a non techie side of things, I think what's most interesting to me is like thinking about how you disrupt that queue experience. You know, just make it more on an attraction where it does take a lot of time to get on the actual ride itself. How do you make that more of an engaging experience? So you don't, you ultimately don't want people to feel like they're in a queue. I mean, like we always say about our work in the rides, we want the screen to be invisible. How do you make the queue invisible as well? So you feel like you're having fun. You're like, okay, now I'm ready to get on the ride. I can go on.
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Max MacEwan: That would be, you know, as a fan, as somebody who's entering the parks and enjoying them on a personal level, like that's the sort of thing that I'd really love to see, you know, go to the next level.
Greg Hall: Yeah, I think it's always, you know, just always gotta remember it's about the guests and how can we make something that's more unique to them and shareable. Yeah, they can share like, hey, I'm here in a place that's outside of my house and I have to be in this spot to do this. Don't you want to be here too? Like, you know, as simplified as that it sounds, there's so many things that's just locking people in their house and saying that you don't need to do this and, you know, focusing on something that you can only do here and it's worth it is always a win.
Max MacEwan: That's what you're talking about, making the world a better place. Right?
Greg Hall: It's getting people out.
Max MacEwan: Give people outside do it.
Greg Hall: You know, it is, it's a really cool thing to do.
Andy Povey: And yeah, because you might have preempted and already answered my last question. But for our listeners who don't have the massive budgets or the access to cutting edge technology, what would be your tip to anybody that's running an attraction just as a principle to focus on?
Greg Hall: I think it's, you know, always focus on the balance of form and function. I think that's always important. Form and function and what makes something timeless. Because you have the most ornate thing in the world. But if it's not communicating what you're trying to say, then you lose the attention and trust of your audience. You know, and if you do have something that, you know, we have smaller budgets all the time, so.
Andy Povey: Of course, yeah.
Greg Hall: I think that's when you have the biggest bang for the buck though. Like, that's when you have the biggest, you feel the best when you figure out how to optimise and get the most out of, you know, something with expectations or something that you see times 100 because you figure out this puzzle piece.
Greg Hall: You figured out like it works in every angle, that the puzzle can't change. Like you made the perfect puzzle. That's, that's when you know, it just goes insane and you know, they call you a genius and stuff because. Yeah. You know, sometimes when like things you have too many options, you don't make the best option because you have too many options, you know.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Greg Hall: You have a table full of options. Are you, are you making the right choice versus you have three options to choose from and you really thinking about why that choice, which one's the best. So I think that's really important just remembering that also, you know, thinking about the really, the big moments that people have memories with your spirit, with whatever you're designing or making like, you know, how many moments can people enjoy this and share it? You know, you could build the biggest thing on in the world, but if you can only take a picture of it from one angle, people are going to share it less because, you know, that angle is already out there to the world. They can't visit it and explore and. And discover anything. It's. There's nothing to discover.
Greg Hall: You just have a really big thing that's really complicated. So just thinking of that.
Andy Povey: I love that idea, Greg. Give people the opportunity to find their own unique element.
Max MacEwan: Like your own unique connection to what you made.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Greg Hall: If you're telling them this is the only part you can look at it from, and then, you know, they're gonna. You're gonna lose interest because, you know, they saw it before they even showed up to your.
Andy Povey: You know, we've all got that picture with. With our handout, the Empire State standing on top of it.
Greg Hall: We all have that. It's like, can I get another picture of Empire State? Or. You know, I think the Chicago Bean is a good one because you could take so many pictures of that being from different angles and it actually reflects you and the time of day changes. So it looks different. It's like. You look at it's like, dang, that's such a simple shape. Like, why. Why are more people looking at this shape than this crazy castle I made? And then because it's more about them and they can see themselves in different warps and different angles. The lighting's different, the sky's different snowing. Now, it's just they could go there Monday and go there Tuesday, and it's a different picture.
Andy Povey: It's a completely different experience.
Max MacEwan: I always really appreciated the way you thought in that language, Greg, about, you know, designing the attraction in moments that guests are going to have. And maybe it's more about the emotion you're trying to create, to generate a moment. They can have their own one that. It's like. That's how you're trying to construct these beats of the attraction and the storey and the narrative. Because you're not. As we said, it's not a movie. You're not telling them what to think. You have to create an environment where they're going to have that moment and you need to allow and facilitate for them to have that. So. Yeah, that is really cool.
Andy Povey: That's a fantastic principle, Jed. I love it as an idea.
Greg Hall: Yeah. Just give us credit. When you write your book.
Andy Povey: Okay, I will just. Absolutely.
Max MacEwan: There's only one other thing I was going to suggest with like, you know, people who have less budgets and that sort of thing. I mean, I would say one of the most valuable aspects of creating a huge attraction is doing the smallest, most rudimentary, simple mock ups. The tests, the experiments where you take the idea and you play it out. And it might be like rolling a chair around an empty space to see how it feels. Looking at something like this, it can be super simple, it can be tin foil, it can be whatever. But experimenting and actually taking one step forward on something and drawing that line in the sand and going, okay, what if we made it like this and seeing how that feels? That's the way to play with ideas and shape them into better ideas.
Max MacEwan: Rather than just having a bunch of budget and going, let's just make it that way and just assume it's going to work, you know.
Greg Hall: And they should test it with like family members have nothing to do with the industry. Like, yeah, yeah. You talk to only people who only like theme parks. You're just gonna hear more and more things about, you know, this ride was made 30 years ago versus someone who's like, I don't know, just scrolling on their phone and they see this thing about something that happens in, you know, whatever state or village they're from and then boom, your ride pops up next. You know, this is just, it's just another thing to them. So, like getting that natural reaction and, you know, they may not have the vocabulary to explain. Oh, well, you use this panel and LED panel and whatever. They won't have the vocabulary for that, but they don't care. They don't have to have that.
Max MacEwan: They're just going to tell you, I like it, I don't or I feel this way. Oh, that's nice. And sometimes you have to hear that it might hurt, it might sting a little bit. But yeah, you got to understand why they like something. It might be something so simple too. It might be. It's just the wrong colour and that could affect everything. You could design the best thing in the world, but you use the wrong detail that's not relating to what people are experiencing in the world. They might not see it. And that's part of being a good designer. Just communicating to the people and being able to interpret what they can't say out loud.
Andy Povey: I love those ideas
Max MacEwan: That might have a true story from this attraction.
Greg Hall: Yeah, Colours right at the last second, right? Yeah. You know, like, you know, perfectly fine with that. We work with, like, Story of Frankenstein. You know, there's different people on the team that, you know, me and Matt don't look like her. So, you know, it's perfectly fine for us to say, hey, you know, what your thoughts on what she would wear and, you know, things like that. You know, egos will kill anybody in this world, because whatever you make with ego is not going to translate to the public that doesn't know who you are.
Andy Povey: That's a fantastic line to end on, Greg.
Greg Hall: I just made it up. I just made that up.
Andy Povey: We'll definitely credit you with that one. Gentlemen, thank you so much for your time. I cannot wait to be in Orlando in November for IAAPA.
Max MacEwan: We'll be there.
Greg Hall: Yeah, let us know.
Andy Povey: What a blast. Big thanks to Greg and Max for their time. I really hope you enjoyed that even half as much as I did. If you did enjoy this week's episode, please leave us a review. Whenever you get your podcasts, it really helps other people to find us and hear what we have to say. Big thanks to Steve Folland for everything he does to make this sound professional.
Thank you to Emily and Sami from Plaster Creative for all of your efforts in putting this together. And thank you, Wenalyn for looking after all of this for us. And finally, thank you to Merac for bringing us together and making this possible. I've been your host, Andy Povey, until next time. Goodbye.