As part of Skip the Queue’s mini-series celebrating 90 years of BALPPA, Andy Povey and Laura Baxter are joined by BALPPA Chief Executive Paul Kelly to look back at the organisation’s history, its role in supporting and representing the UK attractions industry, and the challenges and opportunities shaping its future. The series continues with conversations featuring the people and businesses shaping the UK attractions industry, exploring their stories, experiences and perspectives on the future of attractions.
To celebrate 90 years of BALPPA, Andy Povey and Laura Baxter are joined by Paul Kelly, Chief Executive of BALPPA, for a look at the organisation’s history, its role in the attractions industry today and what the next 90 years could look like.
With more than 30 years working across the attractions sector and at the helm of BALPPA since 2012, Paul has a unique view of an industry that has changed dramatically and of the people and businesses that have helped shape it.
In this episode, Paul takes us back to BALPPA’s beginnings in 1936, exploring why the association was formed and how the attractions industry has evolved since then. He shares some of the achievements and behind-the-scenes work BALPPA has been involved in, much of which visitors and even some members may never see.
They also explore what BALPPA means to its members today, from lobbying government and representing the industry to perhaps its most important role: bringing operators together and creating a community where they can share knowledge, challenges and ideas.
Looking ahead, Paul discusses the issues facing attractions today, what the next generation of operators needs from the association and why he believes there are exciting opportunities ahead for the UK attractions industry.
This episode is part of Skip the Queue’s mini-series celebrating 90 years of BALPPA, looking at the people and businesses shaping the UK attractions industry.
Show references:
Paul Kelly - Chief Executive at British Association of Leisure Parks Piers and Attractions (BALPPA)
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Credits:
Written by Laura Baxter (YourCMO)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Paul Kelly: My name is Paul Kelly. I'm the chief executive of BALPPA, the British Association of Leisure, Parks, Piers and Attractions, which as you well know is one more P than BALPA, the British Airline Pilots Association, who I have been called by on a couple of occasions.
Andy Povey: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast by and for people working with visitor attractions, brought to you by Merac. I'm your host, Andy Povey. Today's episode is rather special, but then again, aren't they all? I'm joined today by Laura Baxter, who you may have heard of from Blackganghine and Paul Kelly, who's the chief exec of the British Association of Leisure Parks, Pearson Attractions, or BALPPA. This year BALPPA is celebrating its 90th anniversary. So to mark this, we're launching a special series of podcasts talking with some of the founders and owners of UK Attractions. We're going to hear from some of the stalwarts of the industry, from third generation family owners and operators, about them, their roles and what BALPPA means to them. So to quote my favourite line from my ride operator days, heads back, hold tight.
Laura Baxter: 90 Years. Let's start back at the beginning. Obviously you weren't there quite at the very beginning in 1936, but can you give us a bit of a background? I mean, what was going on at the time that made these group of operators get together and decide, actually we need each other?
Paul Kelly: Yeah. So it appears 1936 was the original script of the Godfather. So there was 11 families, 11 stroke, seven families, depending which bit you read, who decided to get together to combat a police report. So the police had done a report on gambling and they were going to put something together which was going to ban all these machines, games of chance, all these things that were done by a lot of the families in their coastal amusement parks. So they got together because they believed that they would not be able individually to battle this report, but if they got together they would have more chance. And as you can see with all of those phrases put together, that's not a million miles away from where we've been in the last X number of years.
Paul Kelly: And that what the principle of a trade association is, or any association, it's about getting together with similar ideas and having the power of many against the power of few.
Laura Baxter: Yeah, safety in numbers, that's what we need. So who were some of these founding members? Who were the families and have we still got some of them in the association today?
Paul Kelly: Yeah, so we tend to focus on the ones that we know and obviously, I think the poster park for this has to be Blackpool Pleasure Beach, because they had Leonard Thompson, who actually put all this together in 1936. You know, made a call, got those people together, and he is the grandfather of the brother and sister who currently run Blackpool at the moment. So they've had a member on the management committee in tenure since 1936. So they are a constant throughout some of the other names. I think we focus on Billy Butlins. He was there as well, and Butlins are members at the moment, but they've had some ins and outs over that time and they're a very different organisation to the way they were then. There's a couple of others that we would focus on.
Paul Kelly: Dreamland Margate, under a slightly different name. They were also at that meeting and we also think Brighton Palace Pier was also represented. So what we've decided to do is we focus on those, because some of the other reports and history is a little bit woolly. And I'm sure some of the other guys you're going to speak to, guys and girls, will know a little bit more about that because they may have family connections. All of our industry has connections going back a long way, very wide, very deep connections in the industry. So we've done a couple of things with that. So we had a Founders Day up in Blackpool to celebrate the fact that they've been members for 90 years. So went up there to have a look around, hear a little bit about the history.
Paul Kelly: And we're also planning to do one in the south of the country, down at Brighton, which will also be interesting, but I'd say probably less of a direct connection with Brighton. That's more about the location than the people operating it. Whereas Blackpool, you get the location and the operators, and it was. And it was amazing.
Andy Povey: Tell us a little bit more about what happens at BALPPA today. I mean, what's your day job look like?
Paul Kelly: In phases? We do a lot of lobbling, a lot of government relations, and that's been very prevalent recently, I have to say. We've had a real burst of that and still going on. Lots of stuff coming through. Appears to be that the government actually wants to talk a little bit more to us. You know, governments are slightly different, people in power are slightly different. We went through a phase of being very engaged with government and then absolute silence. And it's really frustrating because you can't get anything done. You've got nobody to speak to. They change officials almost, I would say, deliberately, so you don't connect with anybody. So you haven't got an Earth that you can go and speak to, but that's coming on a little bit more now.
Paul Kelly: So it's definitely lobbying has gone up, or government relations, as we like to call it now, has gone up as a percentage over the last few years, quite significantly. Second thing you do really, is most of the knowledge in our industry is held by the members. And the joy of what I do is the fact that our members are very happy to share. So it's about creating the opportunities for them to share, you know, so it's not actually the knowledge from the centre, it's the knowledge from the outer reaches being poured back in. So that, you know, we always say, you know, any problem anybody's got in our industry, almost without exception, somebody has either been through it or has got the answer. And it's about making sure you connect those people together to do that.
Paul Kelly: So we do, you know, best practise seminars, we do, you know, marketing, health and safety, getting people in the same room to talk about specific subjects so that other people learn from it. And it's great because you've got people of, you know, mum and dad in the high street all the way to the second largest entertainment company in the world. And that's quite a scope of operators that you can actually call on. So that's two of the three things. The third thing I'd say is that opportunity for. And this is in the latter years about. But probably the last, I don't know, probably 15, 20 years. Probably more like 20 years that we've had trade associate members.
Paul Kelly: So people that supply the industry have come in and become a part of the BALPPA family under the umbrella so that they can talk to our operators directly. And so one of the things we do is try and get those groups of people together for mutual benefit. And that may include going, you know, doing trips to places, going, visiting, educational, learning, something a little bit behind the scenes and just opportunities to network. And we include those. All the trade shows we do or, you know, any great opportunity where people are together, well, why don't we get together and talk? And that's basically, that's the three areas I think I would focus on if you were saying, what do we do at BALPPA?
Andy Povey: Yeah, absolutely. As a longtime trade member with multiple hats on, I value that personally. So thank you and the rest of the team for everything you do. A lot of what you do is therefore naturally invisible. A lot of your government relations work is. It's not obvious. So how do you make the case to members for explaining to them everything that you're doing?
Paul Kelly: Well, particularly with government relations, you know, you will go to a do, and somebody who hasn't been, you know, in touch for a while will come up to you and say, well, where's the wins? What have you done with government relations? What have we got? And your years can go by and you get nothing. Doesn't matter how you try, it isn't related to how hard you work at things. It's timing, it's just. It's almost being repetitive, boring and dull and keeping going because they are there to grind you down. As far as I'm concerned, government officials. Separate you and to grind you down. And I think, you know, because luckily in our industry, we are here, all here for a long time, because I think sometimes I think we'll go away, there'll be somebody different next week, because that's what happens with ministers.
Paul Kelly: They all go. So you have to start your conversation again and again. So, yeah, it's a very difficult one. But I do believe that we've been successful by being almost old. We do the same thing. And the one benefit I have with regards to members and getting the message across is that we have a large management committee of people who are voted in by the members, and they are effectively our board and they are absolutely engaged with everything they do. And they get more reports on a regular basis about what we're doing behind the scenes, rather than trying to tell the whole membership every time what we do every week.
Paul Kelly: So they get the message out there, but also they act as a buffer, you know, because they can have those conversations with people in other meetings and they will back up and understand what we do. And as long as the members trust the people they voted in and I report to those people, then actually that's how it all pieces together. But you're absolutely right that sometimes it's almost impossible to. For people to understand what we do behind the scenes.
Andy Povey: When I've spoken to other members, really, trying to understand what they get from BALPPA, the answer's almost always is people. It's each other. Why is that?
Paul Kelly: Yeah, but I think. I'm not sure you'd want that to change in our particular industry, would you? Because that is our industry, you know, it is. I mean, you know, you can put up as many fantastic bits of equipment and things, but if you don't have the right people operating with the right attitude and the Right. Enthusiasm then. I'm not sure you've got very much.
Paul Kelly: People will see through that bit of kit eventually know, and I know I'm simplifying a little bit, but the people do remember that contact with people when they're taking their kids out, they want those experiences with people who are genuinely pleased to see them and want them at their attraction and that, I think that permeates all the way through the best operators, the people who are in it for a long time, the people that volunteer to do BALPPA to be on the management committee, you know, and I've sat through, you take Covid for example, where we're sitting on a similar scenario where there's people who are now still on our management committee and people who you're going to talk to and I'm sure they'll bring it up.
Paul Kelly: We were on calls twice a day, once with members, once with government and we, you know, and members. And I understand why, you know, they were shouting at them, blaming, you know, the BALPPA members who were trying to resolve things for all of their chaos in know they were externalising what was happening to them instead of thinking, hold on, these guys are trying to help. And yet it's those people who are still going, still putting themselves forward and still for the benefit of the industry. And when I talk to other and I sit, as you know, I do the visitor attraction conference and other things where I'm involved with other trade associations, that one particularly, they're, they are all great examples but on other ones that I do, there's other trade associates where they don't share information.
Paul Kelly: So, you know, the chief executive or the team behind it finds it very difficult to put together, you know, best practice, seminars, things that people can attend where they learn things because everyone's shielding their information and wants to get one ahead of the other. And in our industry, you know, I'm happy to say that's not the way it is and that's about people. So that's a very long winded answer to that question. But that's why I think it's about people.
Laura Baxter: Oh, so we talk, spoken about a lot of the stuff which is invisible, which people don't see because again, it's not all sunshine and rainbows, is it? The families go and have a great day, but actually for the operators and the industry there's an awful lot that goes on behind the scenes and it's not always the best. Obviously we've touched on Covid. We've spoken about changes in government and obviously recently there has been win with the Great British Summit saving and the VAT cut through the summer. Is there anything that genuinely keeps you up at night for the sector right now? And you know, what are the possible solutions to that?
Paul Kelly: Yeah, so I worked at Thorpe Park back in the 80s and I've been made, I think it was like an area supervisor operationally, whatever. This is about 1988 and then there was an accident one of the rides, the Thunder River Ride, which was a water ride which turned upside down. And that was my first attending major safety event. Learned an awful lot on that day. In fact it went over two days. That one is a very serious incident and involved all this, you know, all the services. But more so the follow up as to what went wrong, what happened both. Was it ride related, was it operation related? What, what are your standard operating procedures? What did you get right? What did you get wrong?
Paul Kelly: And I use that as an example and because that still makes me, you know, focuses, I think focuses what we do, health and safety is absolutely massive on what we do and if you get that wrong it can be park ending, career ending, industry affected, all of those. So the work that we do on health and safety, and I have to again hold my, take my hat off to all the people that sit on our health and safety committee and have done for again a very long time and are happy to share and work very hard with our regulator, the Health and Safety Executive. And again, I'm not going to say they're easy to work with because they're not, but they are there to do a job and we have to work with them and we have to find a way of improving safety.
Paul Kelly: So that's what keeps me, if I ever find examples of things not being done properly or people not willing to do things properly, that's what keeps me up. Because all of us who've been around a long time have seen the end result of that, however long ago it was and may always be a long time ago, but the end result is catastrophic.
Laura Baxter: Most of us in our lifetime can recall certain instances. Obviously for you it was for that one. For my generation it was probably the smiler. But like I say it is, it's in the fallout from that and how that's handled. And one thing that I would like to call out and credit BALPPA for is that within that health and safety seminar, not only do you obviously tackle the operational side of all of that, but the crisis management training as well and, you know, helping people with media training. Because I again, I think everyone in the industry remembers that very famous sky interview that was done after the Smiler.
Laura Baxter: And actually to be able to arm operators with that level of knowledge is absolutely a blessing because like you say, it will be the biggest thing that ever happens to somebody in their career, both personally and as a park as well.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Paul Kelly: And also with that, and credit to Merlin and the guys that were involved is that they did a debrief to all of the industry on that. You know, as I say, we were willing to share and we're willing to also share the downsides as well as the ups and that, the lessons that learned on that. I've never been in a room where people have been so quiet for so long listening to that debriefing and people realising, you know, you could argue there was probably five human factors in a row that caused that accident or had a causation for that accident. At any point, if you just stopped one of those five things or realised that was happening, then it wouldn't have happened.
Paul Kelly: But it was the multiple layering of that and everyone who was that room was saying, oh, yeah, we would have gone to at least level two on that or three without, because we don't have an appropriate system to stop that if a mistake has been made. So a huge learning from that and that's it. We can't, we can't run our industry unless people are willing to share those bits of information and learn from them and push high standards of safety forward.
Laura Baxter: What do you think the next generation of operators need and can get from BALPPA?
Paul Kelly: We can all tell the weather's changed, but the day and the way our season's running and the amount of people turning up is all changing. So I'm talking to people and it's not about people saying, well, it's just not the way it was. You know, we're not going to get anywhere like that. But it's about adapting to the way it is. So I think we're going to have to tackle that. Now, looking at the fact that maybe the season isn't going to be, you know, and I don't know if anywhere has this anymore, but, you know, when I was working on a bank holiday or a Sunday, if it was sunny in the morning, we got absolutely mopped. That doesn't seem to happen anymore or. I'm not aware of that.
Paul Kelly: Those blockbusting days when your car parks fall or you or there's too many people queuing to get in. But what you're hoping for is to have those people over a period of time. So that means operations and the way you operate has to change slightly and maybe your offering has to change. So I think going forward, we're going to be looking at that a little bit more. I think the stuff that we do on a regular basis is going to keep going.
Paul Kelly: We've majored a little bit more on accessibility this year, and I think that's going to be big going forward, is getting that balance with the public between what they need and what we can deliver, and making sure that we can deliver as much as they need without spoiling the experience for those people with those sort of issues and those people who haven't. And getting that balance, because that's really exploded at the moment. So there's a lot of work on that. And also, you know, dealing with this weather and unfortunately, as I was chatting today, boring stuff about the valuation office for the next business. Right. And all the stuff nobody actually wants to hear about because it's dull. But all of those things are going to be part of what we do for the next X number of years.
Laura Baxter: There's always someone to cover off the dull stuff. You just ring BALPPA and get the answers if you don't want to do it yourself. I love that. So we have got a very exciting miniseries lined up and it's all to honour BALPPA's 90amazing years and all of its members within it. So we are going to be talking to some absolute legends from within the attraction space, obviously starting with Paul, but we're also talking to the likes of the amazing Mancy family from Paultons, Julie Dalton from Gulliver's, as well as talking some of the newcomers, as well as with the fantastic Kynren coming on. And Anna Smith as well, we'll be talking to her. I'm sure they've all got incredible and amazing stories to tell. But, Paul, who are you most looking forward to hearing from?
Paul Kelly: Well, so I've done this for a while, so every two years I get a new chairman of BALPPA because they. They get voted in every two years. So I'm currently on my eighth chairperson. And of that you have three or four of those that you're interviewing who have all been in the industry. There's a lot of lifers in there, as you know, people who've done this for a very long time and will continue to do so. But you've got some people there who will touch on the history of BALPPA and the history of the industry. Way before my time, all of that going on, it's absolutely fantastic. And then you've got a couple of opportunities there, two or three about the future.
Paul Kelly: And I know we're reviewing 90 years of BALPPA, but in the 40 odd years I've been doing this, I've never seen so many investments in the future. Admittedly, we've lost a couple of theme parks, but that was coming over a period of time. But when you're looking at Kynren, Universal, Pudafou, Eden North, we've never had a selection of things like that and, or on that scale. So anything you're touching on, which talks about where we got to now and then looking forward, and you've got two or three people doing that, so there's some fantastic names on there. And even the development of somewhere like Paultons, which never stops. You go down there now, the beautiful new Viking area, and if you peer over the fence, you'll see what's coming next. It's absolutely stunning, the amount of investment we've got.
Laura Baxter: Fantastic for us as UK residents and theme park enthusiasts that get to experience all of this. But why do you think it is why is the UK having such a moment in this space right now?
Paul Kelly: I'm not 100% sure why, but I have asked that question and I think there's, you know, if you go around Europe, there is a, you know, each country has at least one blockbusting major park which is just a massive wow. And whilst we've got a small series those, we don't have one on those scale at all. So that's probably my excuse or my reason for Universal coming in because we do have a culture of visiting theme parks and if you can get the right mix in the right place, then there is that opportunity. And that's what they've seen. They think it is time for one there. So that's going to be fantastic. I mean, they're already BALPPA members. I've known those guys for 20, 25 years. The people are putting it in, so it helps enormously with conversations.
Paul Kelly: And I noticed they're also starting to pick off some of our people in the industry to use them. And now I've got those people calling me on behalf of Universal, whereas they used to call me on behalf of somebody else. But it's the same people. It's just, you know, it's nice to have that bit of dialogue. Pu du fou will be Amazing. Very, very akin, if that's the right word, to Kynren, which I went to the opening of, which is Anna, Andy, you were there, although I don't know how I missed you, but I did.
Andy Povey: I was incognito maple.
Paul Kelly: Were you? Okay, but that was amazing and that will be amazing. I mean, those sorts of things. We haven't had that scale of operation of live reenactments, of bird shows, of, you know, evening events. We just haven't had that before. So again, massive reason for staying in this country and going to those things. So is it just a timing thing? I think so. What it does show is the resilience of what we do. We had lost a couple of theme parks, but for me they'd been a long time in that process. They'd been struggling for a while. There are no snap closures, as I'd call them. Suddenly, "Oh, we can't operate very well." They've been going downhill, unfortunately, for a while.
Paul Kelly: So now I think we've gone downhill and it does appear we're on the way up and our involvement with those attractions and their involvement with us is crucial. And they are, to be fair to all of them, all involving themselves in coming to seminars, coming to events and being members of BALPPA already, and they're not even open yet.
Andy Povey: Paul, that's a really positive note to share. Thank you. I'm really looking forward to seeing not just the new venues and new attractions, but actually what they do to the rest of the attractions in the UK market. We had a conversation with Duncan Phillips a few weeks ago as Mr. Milton Keynes, as I've dubbed him, talking about what Universal meant for people operating in the area. And I think one of his most interesting points was what it does to price intentionally. It gives everybody the opportunity to look at their value scores and their price and improve their business models that way. So over the next few weeks, as part of the BALPPA birthday celebrations, we're talking to a bunch of stalwarts from the industry.
Andy Povey: What is it that you would hope anybody who listens to all of these episodes is going to come away with?
Paul Kelly: Great question. So I'm looking forward because one of my Honda memories is working with Bob O' Connor. Yeah, so Bob was my first effectively full time chairman because I'd taken over partially from Adrian man, who was at the Two Swords Group then and Merlin. And then I had Bob as my first chairman and he was fantastic and also very innovative as well. In fact, I credit him with the start of getting accommodation into all attractions. So you could arguably say that Alton Towers was the first one that put a hotel in, which they did, but then that wasn't necessarily the solution for everyone. Not everyone could build a 200 room hotel on theirs, but everybody wanted to create resorts and attractions.
Paul Kelly: So Bob, as I'm sure you'll speak to, about, went around the world looking at options that other people did and suddenly how it's Port Lim, you could go and stay up a tree or you could go in some sort of cabin and then animal experience. And I really think that's where a lot of people. And if you talk to Josh Crealy, I'm pretty sure he'll say that's where he got it from. And now they have, what is it, 800,000 people staying overnight, whereas previously they had none. So that's not a bad start to the day if you've got a thousand people on your doorstep on an attraction which wouldn't see anybody before half 11 normally, because it takes so long to get there, or people wherever they were staying.
Paul Kelly: So I think what you learn is that there are innovators throughout our industry because of two reasons. One, because of their enthusiasm and love for the industry, and the other one is the length of time people stay in our industry. When you're, when you are committed and knowing this is all I'm going to do. So I need to dig in and find out how to do it the best way. And I think you'll pick that up from all of those people. You're talking to some of the family members, that's all they've ever done. You know, you talk to Julie, she'll tell you when she was 11 years old, she was illegally working on some sort of stall or doing something, although in those days I don't think it was illegal. And that'll be the same, you know, right across the board.
Paul Kelly: So I think you'll get those similar messages. Told in different ways. But your overall impression is that all of these people are dedicated and love the industry and that's all they're ever going to do. So you can rely on them for that.
Andy Povey: What a lovely thought to end on.
Laura Baxter: So if people aren't BALPPA members and they would like to be a part of this extraordinary community, where do they need to go and who do they need to speak to?
Paul Kelly: Well, they need to go to our website, have a look on there as to how to join BALPPA, what we do. And then if you make that inquiry, you will end up talking to me, one of the most important things I do is talking to people who think or are not sure about whether they should be BALPPA members. Because I know based on what they do, whether it's an operator, whether it's a trade associate, whether or not it is the right time or the right organisation for them. And if it's not, then I'll know an organisation they can join or maybe they should think about this or wait a period of time because it's a commercial decision for them and we want them to get the best out of what we do.
Paul Kelly: We're very confident and very secure in what we do, so we know what we do. What we want to make sure is that people can benefit from it. So if you inquire, it doesn't mean you're committed to anything, you will end up having that conversation to say, you know, that's fairly open conversation. So, well, what you hope to get out of it. This is what we do, this is how we do it. Can you benefit from it?
Laura Baxter: Love that even members get vetted. There you go. You know you're in safe hands because we got to be in the circle. Love that.
Andy Povey: And listeners, if you don't get to speak to Paul, then you know that you've been on the British association pilots website, not the BALPPA.
Paul Kelly: That's what.
Andy Povey: Yes, double P. Thank you Laura and Paul. We'll obviously put a link to BALPPA in the show notes and all of the publicity that we put out for this miniseries. Listeners, if you enjoyed what you've heard, please take a moment to like or even recommend. Send us on whatever platform you use.
If you want to hear more from Skip the Queue or listen to the rest of the BALPPA special series, head over to skipthequeue.fm.
Today's episode was co produced by Sami and Emily from Plaster with Laura from YourCMO. Socials and schedules were all by Wenalyn back at Merac HQ. Editing and making it all sound good was by Steve Folland. I've been your co host this time, Andy Povey. Thank you and goodbye.