As part of Skip the Queue’s mini-series celebrating 90 years of BALPPA, Laura Baxter is joined by Debs Griffin, Director of Sundown Adventureland, to explore the story behind one of the UK’s best-known independent family attractions. Debs shares how the family-run park has remained independent for 58 years, balancing nostalgia and tradition with the challenges of running a modern attraction on a lean budget. This episode also explores family ownership, staying independent, adapting to changing visitor expectations and what it takes to keep an attraction thriving for generations.
In this special episode of Skip the Queue, Laura Baxter is joined by our guest, Debs Griffin, Director of Sundown Adventureland in Rampton, Nottinghamshire.
This year, BALPPA turns 90. Our guest today runs a park that turns 58. Between them, that’s close to a century and a half of British attractions, and neither got there by accident.
Debs Griffin is a director of Sundown Adventureland, the theme park for the under-tens. It started in 1968 in her grandparents’ back garden with a donkey and a monkey called Coco. Today, it spans sixty acres, with rides and a holiday village, and is still owned and run by the same family. Debs, welcome back to Skip the Queue.
You heard Debs on the show earlier this year with Andy, where she told the story of how Sundown grew. There’s no need to tell that story twice. Instead, today’s conversation looks at the harder question, and one that doesn’t get asked often enough: not how you grew, but how you’ve kept going. Fifty-eight years, the same family, no outside money. So let’s start there.
This episode is part of Skip the Queue’s mini-series celebrating 90 years of BALPPA, looking at the people and businesses shaping the UK attractions industry.
Show references:
Our Guest Host; in partnership with BALPPA:
Laura Baxter - Founder of YourCMO
BALPPA - https://www.balppa.org/
Our Guest:
Debs Griffin -Director of Sundown Adventureland
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Merac. We provide attractions with the tools and expertise to create world-class digital interactions. Very simply, we're here to rehumanise commerce. Your guest host is Laura Baxter.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.
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Credits:
Written by Laura Baxter (YourCMO)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Laura Baxter: This year BALPPA turns 90. My guest today runs a park that turns 58. So between them that is close to a century and a half of British attractions and neither of them got to those milestones by accident.
Debs Griffin: We're up to like third generations of families that are visiting now return customers is massive for us. Massive.
Laura Baxter: Debs is part owner and director of Sundown Adventureland in Nampton, Nottinghamshire, a theme park for the under tens. It started in 1968 in her grandparents back garden with a donkey and a monkey called Coco. Today it's 60 acres full of rides, a holiday village and still owned and run by the same family.
Debs Griffin: We don't know how we ever do it, but the Sundown way always manages to pull it off.
Laura Baxter: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast where you get to meet some of the incredible people working in visitor attractions. Brought to you by Merac. I'm Laura and I'm guest hosting this episode as part of a special series marking BALPPA's 90th birthday. Debs, welcome back to Skip the Queue.
Debs Griffin: Thanks for having me.
Laura Baxter: Now, you were on the show earlier this year with Andy and you told the story of how Sundown grew, about how it all started. I'm not going to make you tell that twice. But what I do want to talk to you about today is the hard question, and one that I think that people don't really think about often enough. And that's not how you grew, but actually how you've kept going. A lot of parks that opened around that time would have either sold up, been bought out or sadly closed altogether. What do you think you got right and allowed you to persevere where others have perhaps struggled?
Debs Griffin: My grandparents, all day long, they were so regimented and so strict with how they spent their money, how they employed people. It was their baby, they built their baby and nobody was going to take that away from them. And they were always massive believers in if you can't afford something, you can't have it. End of story. So they were massive savers, really on the ball all the time. Even when it came down to, because we're third generation run now. When it came down to especially me and my brother Sean, we got sent to college like there was no two ways about it. If this was what we wanted and we wanted to stay within the business, we had to prove ourselves. We started at the bottom, like really at the bottom and we learned every single job here.
Debs Griffin: And I think looking back now, we've got to be grateful for it because it gives you that passion, it makes you fall in love with the job as well. Getting to learn the understanding of how all the very small bits which could be overlooked by, you know, any other MD or, you know, like the big guys that go in and run these big parks on their merit alone. Education. Sometimes I think she got it right with building the experience for us, not just the education. So I think the two went hand in hand. And like I say, she was a very strict lady.
Laura Baxter: There's something about that generation, isn't it? They're just built different. The work ethic. Absolutely. What you say about if you couldn't afford it, you didn't have it. So very different money mindsets, probably, to kind of bigger organisations. And I think you're absolutely right that when it's your. When it's yours and it's your baby and it's a family business, you've got skin in the game, right? So, like you say, you build that experience and it means so much more than if you're just organising and managing a concept for somebody else.
Debs Griffin: Yeah. It means so much more. So something working, whether you're building a new ride or a new cafe or, you know, like with the lodges and stuff, you're all in. You are all in. It's not something that can just be decided because there's a budget there for it. You know, we work hard and focus on that and we get the end game and every penny's always gone back in. Don't get me wrong, she had a lovely holiday every year and she lived in a nice house and things, but everything else went back in. It was always about making things better. And the thing is, yeah, we are coming up to our 60th anniversary in 2028 and we just want to reinstall that into the way we want to carry the park forward.
Debs Griffin: And you don't get to the numbers that we've got to without a lot of blood, sweat and tears. I'm not gonna lie. We are getting older. We have still got some quite old attractions in, and maintaining those things alone is a difficult thing to do. So keeping on top of that, as well as putting in new attractions or events or building on what you've got already, is always going to be there.
Laura Baxter: Sundown has never taken outside investment, which is absolutely extraordinary. What do you think that's cost you? And on the flip side, actually, what has it bought you? What's been the benefits of it?
Debs Griffin: I don't know, maybe we're not very good at sharing, but. No, on a serious note, I would say it does give you more freedom when you're not answering to a board of chairman, directors or what have you. It is a lot easier to make decisions and to do what's right for the business from our perspective. I mean, we can't be doing too bad we're still here.
Laura Baxter: Absolutely.
Debs Griffin: So the ideas and investment that we have made ourselves within the company, I feel have been the right choices at the right time. Whereas if you were always having to fight against the big man all the time and, you know, or ladies, it could be a lot harder, a lot more fences to jump. It's a lot more people to get onside, whereas there's only four of us that can get around the table and we all get along really well, to be fair. There's me and mum and then me two brothers and me. And very on the same wavelength. But we've all grown up here, so it's always Sundown's best interest at heart.
Laura Baxter: That's so important. I love that. But I've got to ask, has selling ever genuinely been on the cards for you guys?
Debs Griffin: No, it just, it hasn't. My grandma, years ago, potentially nearly bought a couple of other parks and decided that actually she just wanted to stick with the one. But when it comes to selling up, it's never. Maybe Covid was a little bit of a wobble in them first couple of weeks, but it was not, you know, when nobody knew what was going to happen. I mean, we took the decision to close a couple of days before it was official and you know, times you do think, "Oh, my God, are we going to lose. Are we going to lose this?" And there's in those kind of situ. Well, there's just that one situation, to be fair. But no, even then were just like, "No, no" it would be like giving away your child.
Laura Baxter: Yeah, yeah. It means too much.
Debs Griffin: You don't know what's around the corner, so you could never say never. But me and Sean's been running the park now for 18 months, just the two of us. Our younger brother, he is a lot younger than us. He's slowly building up and mund now and we've just slowly, like, got into the pace of it and actually we're. It's working really well. I'm known. We haven't fell out yet. We haven't done. I used to Have a few little tiffs and it used to be who was throwing the keys in a conference room table first, but by the next day it was always sorted. But no, we've not got there yet. No one's throwing their keys in the table yet. So, no.
Laura Baxter: That's brilliant. That's so lovely to hear. I love, I love that family run parks can not only keep going, but want to keep going. Like it's not a slog, it's not a chore, it's not something you've been passed on and feel duty bound to keep going with. But you genuinely love it.
Debs Griffin: Yeah, definitely. And I think the fear of then watching somebody else develop or change it or whatever they'd want to do would be heartbreaking, I reckon because if it was an investor, they are very profit led and it does worry me what would change overnight.
Laura Baxter: Well, speaking of change, you have got parents coming to park with children that they came themselves as children. I completely understand this scenario from my time at Blackgang Chine as well. What do you do in your marketing? And just as importantly, what does it do to your ability to change things? Because sometimes people, they want the nostalgia hit, but they also want it to be modern and new. How do you guys go about finding that balance?
Debs Griffin: It is difficult because we've just done a big project on our castle and that's had a couple of massive overhauls ever since it was built. And I think it was when we'd closed that down for a serious amount of time to repaint it and re roof it, all the electrics needed redoing. So we wasn't changing it, were literally just bringing it back to its, you know, former beauty, if you like. And it was at that point when you, when we realised like actually how much our guests really do like the nostalgic side of it. To the point where we had one family in and she was just adamant that she would not be coming back until it was back open because her daughter was absolutely heartbroken and you just think, oh my God. But like it really needed work doing to it.
Debs Griffin: Like we'd be apologising all the time and this, there was this one lady and she was just absolutely, just not happy at all. But then on the other hand, we opened a new Easter attraction this year and that went down really well because it was something a bit different to what they were used to. We still kept the old bits in as well that we did for Easter, the little Easter egg trails and things but yeah, they want change and they want new things but they also like to keep the nostalgia because like you say we were up to like third generations of families that are visiting now. We notice it on the lodge park as well. Return customers is, was massive for us. Massive.
Laura Baxter: So then where is that line between nostalgia and dated and how do you know if it's something that you've crossed?
Debs Griffin: People let you know. To be fair. They are very more on board with opinions and reviews and things now. So your feedback from your guests is always going to be your first port call. To be fair. We tend to do a few marketing campaigns and stuff. You know, if we was to build a new attraction, what would you want to say? We've just reached on our galleon and we're going to involve our guests with the naming of that because like you say, how do you know where the line is? Well, we know that we can't put the original name back on that galleon because of generational changes and things like that. So the name that we had we can't use again.
Debs Griffin: I mean you could but you wouldn't in this day and age because we are for the under tens and that the name it was, it's not appropriate anymore. So there is a line and there is some things that we have had to change over the years to make them still be in line and in keeping generationally. And then when we take out attractions or replace them, we always make sure that we're doing it that's more in keeping than the nostalgia. So when we do build new, we do stick with new and shiny and different.
Laura Baxter: Brilliant. I think guest feedback is so important and exactly you hit the nail on the head. They want change but they also want everything from their childhood to maintain and be the same and be there for their children to experience as well. Because that is the magic of being a parent, isn't it? Is being able to relive your childhood and to have a multi generational site like yourselves. But I think you can't beat it. There's something so special about the grandparents and the parents and the kids experiencing it for the first time. Just sometimes going out on site and people watching to see those moments is just, it's absolutely priceless.
Debs Griffin: Yeah, I don't think we'd ever be able to get rid of Humpty Dumpty sat on his wall and I think the day that the monkey swings, you know, fail or you know, they need to be replaced or what have you they will literally just be turned into a photo op because those two things just are where. And our dragon as well. They're just such photo ops for people coming through the generations. So especially the monkey swings and Humpty Dumpty. We know it that they'll send us pictures and they'll be like, "Oh, this was me when I was a child. This is me, mom, this, you know, me grandma and things." And it is really nice. That happens more and more now in social media.
Debs Griffin: Everybody is chasing, you know, the recreation of photographs with their families or places that they've visited when they were little. They then want to go and do it with their kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews. And I think because we are family ran, we love the family stories that we get as well. So we love getting all the positive feedback because a lot will email us in and tell us, you know, their favourite bits when they were younger, thanking us that we're still here and we've not. Not changed too much. But yeah, love it. Love just chatting to people, believe it or not.
Laura Baxter: I never would have guessed, Debs. Never would have guessed.
Debs Griffin: I know.
Laura Baxter: So we touched upon it earlier about being small. And I think one advantage that you guys will have over some of the bigger operators is, like you say, there's less hoops to jump through and you can decide to do something on a Tuesday and start it on a Wednesday. Can you give me some examples of where that speed has really mattered and you've had some successes with that?
Debs Griffin: So we call it the Sundown Way. So our Easter event that we did this year was an Idea Shaun had 11 weeks before the day it was due open. So we had no construction company in place. We just had a drawing on a piece of paper, a good drawing. Sean's very good at drawing and his ideas are incredible. Within two days, he'd got the builders on site, the plans were done, we'd got a design team in. Like, don't get me wrong, it was. It was all hands on deck to the point where even we was a little bit nervous and we don't know how we ever do it, but the Sundown Way always manages to pull it off. But, yeah, we are very last minute because like you say, we can. We've.
Debs Griffin: If, if we decide we want to do something and we don't have much time, we'll just be like, well, we'll have a try, we'll just, you know, but we'll see how it goes. And then you get halfway through it and you just say, no, what have we done? And then all of a sudden, I mean, we've got great staff. We have, we've got incredible staff on our books, we've got incredible contractors that we can just rely on. Yeah, I can't fault the teams that we work with, but again, that's relationships that we've built up over the years. So.
Debs Griffin: But when you, you're going through investors and stuff, you have to tender out all the time, you have to chase for best price, which we do tender out for the majority of things, but sometimes you don't have that luxury and it's just a case of can you help?
Laura Baxter: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Love that is. It almost bleeds out like a community atmosphere as well, doesn't it? Especially if you've been there that long. Quite literally, your local community and residents and trades people and businesses will want to get behind you and want to back you because you are such an important part of the local area.
Debs Griffin: Yeah, we always try and support local. So even if we do smaller projects, bigger products, but need an outside company to come in, we will always go local. Always. Down to our uniform, down to the guy that does our signage, beer that we sell in our restaurant. If we can get it local or, you know, somebody can do it local, we will 100% do it that way. And, you know, sometimes it does, it is a little bit more money, but sometimes it's sort of having their back. They've got your back as well, you know, you're going to get a good service. I don't think everything should always revolve around money. I think sometimes you have to take into account the service you're going to get.
Debs Griffin: Aftercare as well is always helpful and, you know, when it comes to your suppliers, when we use local suppliers, you know, they're only around the corner, so even if they can't get to you can get to them. So there's a lot of that as well. Down to our hot tubs on site. That's a local guy down the road that supplies us with our chemicals. He helps us with training and stuff like that. So, yeah, I do find being able to make those decisions as well is better because you can be morally supportive to local people. But I don't know, I do like the community spirit. I do like the supported local within our industry. I think we're all starting to think a little bit more like that, especially with what's going on in the world and stuff.
Debs Griffin: I think we are slowly all get in that mindset that we need to support more UK businesses.
Laura Baxter:
Yeah, definitely. And like I say, that's a huge advantage of being smaller and independent. But let's flip it to the other side. What are the disadvantages of being a smaller independent? Are there any, Are there times throughout the history of Sundown that actually it's really hurt you guys and you could have done with that kind of bigger corporate backing.
Debs Griffin: I would say it would all boil down to obviously having more funding, having more capital, because that's the be all and end all with investors, you know, that they're more cash rich, so stuff can get done a lot quicker. I suppose Knowledge as well, you know, these investors don't come with no knowledge. They know what they're doing, they know how to make money. So, you know, there's good, there is plenty of good things for investors to come in and their knowledge is always going to be, yes, more corporate. But we are all businesses at the end of the day. So it's not bad, it's not a bad thing at all. Investors. Not at all.
Laura Baxter: So you guys at Sundown are BALPA members now for a small independent operator, what does the association give you back that you couldn't get anywhere else?
Debs Griffin: Knowledge. All day long, when we all get together and we meet up, being able to talk to other people that are in the industry, you're quite alone, to be fair. You know, you can go out with your friends and you know, have a chat and everything, but they don't get it. You know, I've got friends that work in supermarkets or hairdressers or things like that and it's not similar at all. But when you go to BALPA, you talking to people that nine times out of 10 I've experienced what you're struggling with or they're struggling with something else that maybe you've come out the other side. It's just, it's such a cliche, but I'm going to say it anyway. But you genuinely feel like you're amongst mates that are living very similar lives to you.
Debs Griffin: Don't get me wrong, it's always nice that there's a bar available, but just being able to sit down and talk about the nitty gritty, be completely honest and maybe get some help and advice from the other guys that's there. And especially with COVID and when different laws are passed, they're so hands on, they are really helpful and if they can't help you, they will find you answer or they will find somebody that, that can assist you, that they're just. I don't know. It'd be one of them things that if we wasn't a member, it'd just be like, oh my God, where would you go? Yes, the theme park industry is a massive industry, but if you take a step back, there's not that much out there to help us within the government and everything else at.
Debs Griffin: Whereas Bowper and UK hospitality now that started working way more together. We seem to have maybe only a whisper, but we've got a voice now. You know, we've got the VAT Relief this year, which was incredible. I don't see why we don't have it all the time, but we've got it for a little bit, which was incredible. So it's all the things that you wouldn't specifically see as an outsider looking in, what Val could do.
Laura Baxter: Yeah.
Debs Griffin: Everybody just seems to think that we get to go to these incredible places, which we do and you know, we have an amazing time. But I don't think people understand like how much hard work goes into what they are doing on a day to day basis, down to insurances, health and safety, like updates they put on for us, marketing and it's all specific to our industry as well, which there isn't much out there that is specific to our industry and they just, they work really hard on it.
Laura Baxter: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's. They say don't they, that being a business owner can be one of the loneliest places to be. Like, as you've said, a lot of your friends will just have, you know, normal jobs and not really get it. When you then layer being that business owner to a theme park or a leisure attraction, it's a whole different niche of loneliness because of like you say, the la within that and the challenges within that can only ever be truly understood and felt by people doing the same. So to have a community that brings those people together that have not only just lived and experienced it and can totally relate and empathise, but actually have that knowledge as well.
Laura Baxter: You know, we're so lucky that because BALPA has been going for 90 years, obviously Sundown's been going for 68, but there's people within that space that the amount of knowledge they've got to just have, as you say, half an hour with someone at a bar, even if it is at a bar, is absolutely incredible and will give you so many nuggets of wisdom and tips. And tricks and things that can help you with whatever you're going through in your business is absolutely amazing. And as you say, for Covid, for us, as an industry was just the worst possible thing that could have happened. As you say, probably so many people sat there and thought, are we going to come out the other side of this? Like as a business, as a family, we're done for. That's our livelihood gone.
Laura Baxter: So to have had the support and then the lobbying and the direct line into what was going on higher up the chain was so invaluable to get everybody through what was probably, certainly in our lifetime, the worst thing to ever hit our industry.
Debs Griffin: It's definitely my worst memory of doing the job that I do was Covid. Having to stand in front of a hundred plus employees and basically just say, I don't know, it was horrible. Anybody that knows me knows I'm a talker, you know, I've got the confidence and everything. But telling a hundred people that I don't know how they're going to pay their bills was just awful. I mean, furlough was incredible. But apart from furlough, theme parks didn't really get that much and we didn't. We was very shut out. But at least all we cared about was our staff. They had children at home, you know, some had poorly people that they were looking after. They got mortgages to pay. It was just so much. And yeah, it's got to have been the worst thing.
Debs Griffin: And then, you know, there was only BALPA that had returned your emails. You know, you'd be getting in touch with local MPs or anybody else and nobody would want to talk to you at all yet BALPA would always email back. And even if it was just like, I really don't know, but please be assured that we're working on it. You always got an email back from him because nobody knew what was going to happen. Absolutely awful time for everybody and we'll just be forever grateful that we got through it. We don't need another one now.
Laura Baxter: No, no, job done. We've lived through that now. We don't need anything else.
Debs Griffin: We've done that now. We've had, we've had our Christ, our generation. Yeah, we don't need it.
Laura Baxter: Valpa's turning 90. It's actually not that far away for Sundown. Another, another, like third to go for sundown. To make it to 90. What needs to happen? What will keep you guys going another 32 years?
Debs Griffin: Maybe my children should be a bit more Focused, definitely. Oh, another 30 years. I'd like to be retired thinking about it, because that'd make me. I had a big birthday this year, so that'd make me 70 in a bit.
Laura Baxter: Definitely need a rest by then.
Debs Griffin: Definitely. Definitely. My poor grandma, bless her, she just worked every day and fair play to her. But, yeah, I, I reckon I. But then, I don't know, it's. It's. It's doing that big step away, isn't it? I don't know. I would say it'd be lovely to think that the next generation of kids want to do it. I don't want to force my kids to do it, but then my younger brother's just had a little girl and I'm just like, she could be the next Debs. I could mould her, give up with my own that I've broken, clearly, and focus on the shiny new one and see if she wants to be a mini Debs.
Laura Baxter: So, on that note, then, if someone is in their 20s, kind of coming into that working stage of a family run attraction, it's kind of their time. They've been put through their paces like you were. They've done the education, they've worked in F and B, they've worked in retail, they've done the ride operations, they've picked up the litter, they know everything and they're. They're being now primed and moulded to go into the. The more senior role from their parents or their aunties and uncles, whatever it might be. What is the first thing that you would tell them to protect and what is the first thing that you would.
Debs Griffin: Tell them to change in their 20s? Yeah, I would, just from experience. So me and Sean started getting responsibility mid to late 20s. And I would personally say it's too much at that age in my. Just. Just from mine and Sean's experience, I would say you need to be shadowing, you need to just be sitting back and watching just for that little bit more guidance. Me and Sean was very lucky. We had my grandma and my granddad for a little while and then my mum as well was very hands on. So we was given responsibility. Very, very little bits. And I think that was probably a better way of doing it.
Debs Griffin: So small responsibilities over a period of time rather than saying grand, you're going to be the park manager, you're going to oversee absolutely everything to do with operations, health and safety, food and beverage, you know, it was. It was very overwhelming. I'm not going to lie. I did have Two small children as well. But my husband was incredible and he was the stay at home dad. Probably did a better job than I could have done anyway. But I would say, generationally, I think it is potentially too young. Yeah, you need to just watch for a good year, just watch what the other person's doing.
Debs Griffin: So if anybody's thinking, oh, we need to be doing some changes and things like that, there needs to be a really long period of a crossover, because whether you're operations manager or food and beverage manager or, you know, health and safety marketing, I don't care how big your company is, you are always going to be interacting with other managers and everything that will want your advice on other things. So, yeah, learning to be part of a team for a start. It doesn't matter if you're talking to somebody that is there to clean your toilets or if you're talking to one of your managers. Everybody is there, everybody deserves respect. And sometimes I think especially with younger people, the power can, one, be overwhelming and two, you're a little bit like, oh, my God, I've got a point to prove as well.
Debs Griffin: So you can sometimes go in a bit all guns blazing, whereas sometimes you just need to take that little bit of time just to settle into the role and like you say, be moulded. So, yeah, I would say time, just time.
Laura Baxter: Slowly, slowly catch your monkey.
Debs Griffin: Yeah, exactly.
Laura Baxter: I can imagine as well it's quite hard to be that restrained, to go that slow as well, because if it's something you've been brought up in and it's kind of all you've ever known, you probably. Well, I would imagine you'd fall into one of two camps. Either that you're chomping at the bit you want to do it, you want to have your time to kind of make your mark and step into that role, or you've gone completely the other way and say, actually, I don't really want to do this as a job, I'd rather not work in the family business. And I'd imagine both come with equal amounts of pressure and, like, conflict the whole time throughout that. It's quite tricky when you're born into something like that, isn't it?
Debs Griffin: Our younger brother, he's 24, so perfect for comparison to your previous question as well. He is not laughing, Sean, at all. He's not got confidence, confrontation, it's not for him at all. That's not to say that he is an absolute asset to our company because he is incredibly intelligent when it comes to it. Cctv any form of software, he can work it. He also has 3D printers set up. He creates a lot of our bespoke theming on site as well. So just because we are a family run generation and you only, well, you only really get to see me because Sean's not got little confidence for cameras and things. It just goes to show that's because you do grow up within a family business.
Debs Griffin: Doesn't mean you have to be the mouth and take off responsibility because without him doing what he does, we, we would, we would need maybe two people to do the things that he does. So do you know, I mean, just because family business doesn't mean that you have to take it over. You can of course be within that company and he, you know, we involve him in big decisions and things like that, but he does not need to be that frontman. He does not want to get.
Laura Baxter: Yeah, it's not for everybody. Absolutely not. And yeah, I love that the business again, like you say, because you can be nimble and adaptable. They're probably, I mean, what I always love about this industry again, the public, don't they just see their day out? Don't they? They have no idea the layers that are going on behind the scenes every day, all the time. And actually the sheer variety of brains and talent and skill sets that you need to run a visitor attraction is extraordinary. Yes, you might need that front leadership, of course, but also you need the people working away in the background doing the things that actually mean you were able to log on this morning, buy a ticket, get your confirmation email, turn up at the door, it scans correctly and then you go in for your day.
Laura Baxter: That whole bit has never even been considered by the person that arrives through your gates.
Debs Griffin: No, they don't, because. But then as soon as there's a second that it doesn't work, then, you know, then it's an issue. So, yeah, it does. It's not always about who can do what, it's who should be doing what. Like, you need to be in the right environment. If we was to force Luke to, you know, join me and Sean and take on our kind of role, it just, it wouldn't work. He won't come in. I don't think he'll come in.
Laura Baxter: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You've all, you've all got your parts to play and it's so nice to see that amongst you as a family. You've all got that and it all works. And it doesn't appear to be clashes and stuff which I think is so wonderful for a family. I couldn't work with my family. Definitely couldn't.
Debs Griffin: Oh, it can be challenging, I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, well, to be fair, I always say that and then. And yeah, it is. It is very rewarding working with your family. But you know, you. Because you know each other in and out every. It is. It's easy to squabble and fall out. But to be fair, it's not usually the business of squabbling over. It'll be really random things, but, you know, that's just families. We're all normal. But no, we do get along. And it is nice because at least you're not having to go and build new relationships, new working relationships. You know each other's quirks and all. You know how to have a conversation with them and everything else. So, yeah, I do like working with my family. And there you go, you've got it on recording now.
Laura Baxter: I was just gonna say I'm waiting for like Sean or your mum or someone to now print that as a quote, stick it up in the conference room so anytime you have a spat, they'll just point to that.
Debs Griffin: You love us, really. No, we do. We do. We get on really well.
Laura Baxter: Debs, thank you so much for what has been a jo genuinely wonderful and joyful conversation, which I'm sure so many people running smaller parks, and certainly those that worked with their own families will absolutely resonate with if you want to see what 58 years of really looking after something properly looks like. Sundown Adventureland is the place to go, and we'll put the links to their site in the show notes. This has been part of our series marking Barker's 90th birthday. Conversations with people running British attractions about what they've learned and what they'd pass on. If you found this one useful. The rest of the series is worth your time as well. This episode was written by Laura Baxter, edited by Steve Folland and produced by Emily Burrows and Sammy Entwistle from Plaster, as well as Wenalyn from Skip the Q hq.
Laura Baxter: If you enjoyed today's episode, please like, share and comment on the episode in your podcast app. It all helps to spread the word about us and the amazing attractions we work with. Be sure to visit SkipTheQueue FM for this episode's transcripts and listen to the rest of the season so far. Once again, I've been your host, Laura Baxter, and I'll see you next time.