As part of Skip the Queue’s mini-series celebrating 90 years of BALPPA, Andy Povey is joined by Anna Warnecke, CEO of Kynren and 11Arches, to explore an attraction unlike any other in the UK. Anna shares the story behind Kynren, its spectacular open-air night show performed by around 1,000 local volunteers, and the newly opened Kynren: The Storied Lands. They discuss what happens when live theatre and immersive experiences meet the attractions industry, including the challenges of managing capacity, visitor flow and dwell time, as well as the lessons learned from launching a brand-new day park.
In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey is joined by Anna Warnecke, CEO of Kynren in Bishop Auckland - an attraction that doesn't really look like anything else in the UK.
Kynren began in 2016 as an open-air night show telling 2,000 years of English history on a seven-and-a-half-acre stage, performed by a cast and crew of a thousand local volunteers, and built as part of a wider mission to regenerate a County Durham market town.
This July, it went a step further and opened Kynren - The Storied Lands, a daytime park built entirely around live shows and immersive experiences rather than rides.
They talk about what changes when your product is performance rather than throughput, what an experience-led attraction can teach a traditional operated site, and what the first few weeks of a brand new park have really been like.
This episode is part of Skip the Queue’s mini-series celebrating 90 years of BALPPA, looking at the people and businesses shaping the UK attractions industry.
Show references:
Anna Warnecke — CEO, Kynren
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Credits:
Written by Laura Baxter (YourCMO)
Edited by Steve Folland
Produced by Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle (Plaster)
Andy Povey: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast by and for people working with visitor attractions brought to you by Merac. I'm your host Andy Povey. BALPPA's celebrating its 90th anniversary this year, so to mark this we're launching a special series of podcasts talking with some of the founders, owners and operators of UK attractions. We're going to hear from some of the stalls of the industry and third generation family owners and operators about them, their roles and what BALPPA means to them. But this time it's going to be slightly different.
Today I'm joined by Anna Warnecke, Chief Exec of Kynren up in Bishop Auckland. If you don't know of Kynren yet, where have you been? I got the opportunity earlier this year to visit with my wife and kids and I can quite honestly say I was blown away.
Andy Povey: It really is a world class attraction and they're doing things very differently.
Anna Warnecke: I'm Anna Wanike, the chief exec of Kinmen and in Kynren we've just opened a brand new theme park with five new attractions and we already have a 10 year old show that is called the Story, an epic tale of England.
Andy Povey: So Anna, rather than me and try and explain what Kynren is to our listeners. Can you give us a couple of sentences to sum the whole thing up?
Anna Warnecke: Well, it's really difficult to sum up in a couple of sentences, but we are telling the story of 2000 years of history with a huge cast of 1000 volunteers and over 200 animals and lots of pyrotechnics. A score written by us. It's, it's something you just have to see to believe it. So do absolutely book your train ticket and come and see our evening show. And for this year we have also opened a daytime attraction that runs from Tuesday to Sunday over the summer holidays. And it tells little mislegends and historic stories and the connections with humans and birds and the environment. It's really exciting place to be.
Andy Povey: Let's focus on Kynren, the story of theatrical performance to start with thousand volunteers. That's phenomenal.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah. When I first heard of the project I thought that was completely impossible to have. So many people want to make a difference for the area for themselves, you know, for the future of their children. But here we are 10 years down the line and our volunteer cast is growing every year and we have 95% return rate. So I think we're quite happy to be there with us.
Andy Povey: So I assume you have a significant cohort that have been with you for the whole 10 years then.
Anna Warnecke: Yes. It's really like a family and old friends, my kids, my husband, everybody is involved as well. So they are performing in the night show and the atmosphere on site is just absolutely stunning.
Andy Povey: It is. I can imagine that it's much bigger backstage than it is front of house. But we really enjoyed it and I was with my wife and 11 year old twin girls so everyone in the family got something from it.
Anna Warnecke: That's what I really like that about our attraction. It does feel like the whole family from tiny tots to grandparents can take something positive out and can do something together that everybody enjoys. There's not many opportunities really where you can do that.
Andy Povey: Managing a team of volunteers has got to bring a completely different raft of challenges to managing a team of paid employees.
Anna Warnecke: Yes. But the I always set out. I absolutely love our volunteers and they do everything, anything for us and the passion that they bring to site and the spirit is second to none. So actually for me it was, I've worked with volunteers for 10 years now. For me it was the other way around. A worry that maybe paid stuff during the daytime attraction is more difficult to get that passion and that connection with. But we have been extremely lucky there too. And just the atmosphere when you come down on site and the emotional attachment to the attractions, you can feel it from everyone. And we get so many compliments from anyone that tells you where to go or takes you to your seats or helps you along.
Anna Warnecke: They're all extremely friendly and just want it to be the best day that you have when you're there.
Andy Povey: You opened the Storied Lands in July as a brand new extension to the attraction and something that's quite unique in the UK.
Anna Warnecke: Yes, I believe we are the first brand new theme park attraction for 40 years now in England. So. So we're trying to. As soon as you come onto the site, you forget about your worries and just embrace the immersive experience. Obviously we are a show park, a historic show park, so you sit down and see shows and performances, but you also can immerse yourself with characters and interact in our Victorian imaginarium or characters that you meet roaming around. So there's a lot of interaction human to human as well.
Andy Povey: And so you running. It's five different live shows, isn't it? And they run throughout the day.
Anna Warnecke: Yes. So depends on how many visitors we have. We can run the big shows twice and the Viking show four times a day and. And you just. Can you follow your pathway through the day so that you Absolutely can see every show. So we are helping with that, with a timetable and. And yeah, it ends up being quite a full day, but at a nice pace where you can also enjoy the play park or a cold beer in between.
Andy Povey: Absolutely. I did. There are five different experiences or shows. What do you actually call them? They're more than a show, aren't they?
Anna Warnecke: We say attraction because four of them are shows and one of them is a walkthrough experience.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Anna Warnecke: So that's how we just call it. Attractions. All of them.
Andy Povey: You're probably not allowed to have a favorite, but I'm going to ask the question anyway.
Anna Warnecke: That's a really difficult one. Also a little bit mean, but yeah. Obviously the Trusty street as my. My background is riding. I absolutely love it and I love the way that the story is telling. A connection in between the girl and the horse. And it just the stunts are daring and brilliant and there's amazing horsemanship in it. So I really do love the fast pace. And the other one that I have a soft spot for is the Lost Feather because, well, I mean, I like nature and I absolutely love soaring birds. And it's something that. That springs emotions out without you even knowing that you ever had emotions for. For animals and suddenly you feel a connection and we can help the environment with that. But honestly, I absolutely love every show.
Anna Warnecke: Of course, I can also see some stuff that maybe I will change a little bit next year, but they're really solid and really enjoyable at the moment.
Andy Povey: You need something to do as the last visitor leaves at the end of the season. It's not all rest time and downtime. My favourite experience in the Strawberries land was the Lost Feather. An absolutely world class bird show experience. I noticed Penny from the Hawk Conservancy Trust down in Andover in the audience, so I made a beeline for her at the end and she was equally enthusiastic about the show. I believe you've worked quite closely with them.
Anna Warnecke: Yes, we are very grateful. We have a partnership with the Hawk Conservancy and Jimmy, our head curator of birds and conservation, is a good friend of Gary's who is training the birds of the Hawk Conservancy. And we are working together on a Conservancy program here in the Northeast. We do our research and then put it together with the Hawk Conservancy who has done many years of research down south and hope to make a difference for mainly kestrels, but any other bird of prey in England as well.
Andy Povey: Wow. So you're putting something back as well. You involved in that whole nature conservancy ecosystem. Love it. How are your sort of show led attractions and show led experiences different from running a normal theme park? It's got to be very different.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah, it's very different. I mean we are called theme park but in England the word theme park always connects with rides of some sort.
Andy Povey: It's all roller coasters and candy floors.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah. But actually the word doesn't really say that. And in Europe it's a theme park can be anything. It can be show related or just beautiful areas themed and sometimes rides as well. So we are very different for English theme parks.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Anna Warnecke: Because obviously running roller coasters is just a, is operationally a completely different thing and you are lacking that connection with a live performance. And we absolutely love live performances. There's something about it that you can. It's like a life concert or a live band playing anywhere or any live theater show. You take something out of being there at that moment in that situation that is way more than what you can get out of any animation. So obviously my hope is that many kids and grown ups alike are either getting an interest for history or maybe in sword fighting or want to be a Pakua gymnast specialist afterwards. But seeing it with your real eyes and the power that has is completely different to watching some movie where you know it's a green screen that does it.
Andy Povey: Absolutely. I mean the equestrian activities and the horsemanship in both shows in the big main arena were absolutely phenomenal.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah, I love it. I just love it. I love the tower of the animals and then seeing how happy they are when they're backstage and the music starts and they know they are allowed to.
Andy Povey: Go now is they're going to perform. Yeah, yeah, I get it. And I mean my girls are both screen junkies like majority of 11 year olds in the world. But seeing the reaction on their faces to the stunts that were happening on horseback was really phenomenal. I love jousting.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah, no, that's brilliant to hear because that's exactly what I would like to achieve. Kids. Seeing that you can have excitement without a phone screen in front of your face.
Andy Povey: You're running the schedules. That's got to be an operational nightmare. You're running the big shows twice and the Viking show four times a day. How do you ensure that everybody gets in to see every show?
Anna Warnecke: And well, we're helping along with that because when you arrive we give your own timesheet now. So for every arrival time you get given a handout at the. And then also there are schedules on. On big maps around the park. So, and obviously everybody knows any till operator, anyone knows where the next show is and where. Where you should be, see someone in the wrong spot, they. They will suggest maybe it's time to go. But that is something that we have to work quite hard on because I don't think that a theme park like this exists in England. So therefore the audience just doesn't. Doesn't yet know what we are doing. We just need to educate that. It's like any other theatre performance.
Anna Warnecke: If you are late, you're not going to see that performance, you know, so we need to be very clear in our communication on that one. But it's working quite smoothly at the moment. So I'm pleased with that. But there was a big worry for us from the get go, really.
Andy Povey: I can imagine. I mean, like you say, it really is a unique experience. In the uk you don't have cues. We're English. We like standing in a line.
Anna Warnecke: Well, it did amuse me the other day. We built the Lost Feather has got a little circle with a beautiful feather in front and a shop where you can buy goats to have our conservation program. And everybody was queuing in twos all the way to the harp. And actually the area is big enough to hold everybody. So I did have to chuckle to myself that the English do like queuing.
Andy Povey: Yeah, we join the line first and then ask what it's for and we get to the end.
Anna Warnecke: Hence. Hence the name for of your podcast.
Andy Povey: Yeah, absolutely.
Anna Warnecke: No, we try and minimize cues. I don't like cues.
Andy Povey: You've got two completely different attractions running at the same time on certain days of the year. So the Kindred shows have weekends and Fridays and Saturdays during the summer, isn't it? Whereas Storagelands is open Tuesday to Sunday. That's two very different business models in the same space.
Anna Warnecke: Well, it is, but they are connected.
Andy Povey: They are, absolutely. Yeah.
Anna Warnecke: So it's the same team that runs both and we are all volunteers on a Kindra night because we don't want to miss out on that one. Oh, yeah. I'm riding every Kindle night.
Andy Povey: So you're taking part in the performance?
Anna Warnecke: Yeah, yeah.
Andy Povey: Fantastic.
Anna Warnecke: I absolutely love it. I love the backstage. I love the hustle and bustle and people running to the next one. And in front it looks as if it's all very calm. And then backstage we are. We are paddling wildly. It's really funny. It's a great experience. But yeah, they are different because one of it is obviously done with volunteers and the other one is paid staff during the day. But the day part really is only here because of our amazing nitro and yet to support that whole destination that we want to create and we need to give more time on our side and more days open and that is not. We are not able to run the kinder night show more often than what we are doing.
Anna Warnecke: So this is the next and natural step for us and all of our volunteers because I'm Archer, they are allowed to come to the pub whenever they want to and they absolutely love it. They just come for having a drink with friends or lunch or bringing other family members and it's just really wonderful to see all the friendly faces coming again and supporting.
Andy Povey: There can't be many chief execs who are on the shop floor every performance. That's got to be a really inspirational way of leading for the rest of the team.
Anna Warnecke: Well, when I became the chief execs we did have a little bit of a conversation about oh, maybe I have to behave like a normal chief exec. But then that got overturned very quickly.
Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, don't do that.
Anna Warnecke: No. And actually I just, I love doing it. So it's wonderful to be there and to be able to. Of course if I had to and had to deal with something else I would drop whatever I'm doing and dealing with it. But the team, so that's brilliant that they can do with most of the stuff and it can wait till the next morning. The only question that we have a little bit for ourselves is opening Sundays because on a kinman night we always stay back and have a little drink afterwards and a good moment and then we have to open on Sunday mornings again now.
Andy Povey: Well, that's fine. Employ lots of young people, they recover more quickly.
Anna Warnecke: Exactly.
Andy Povey: Just talking about employing young people, what are they most inspirational things I think about Kynren and the Auckland Project as well as works side by side with you is the regeneration and redevelopment of an area of the country that needs some regeneration.
Anna Warnecke: Well, this is what's, what makes me happy every time I come down on sites that I know we are making a difference for individuals and maybe even a bigger, wider regional difference. And we have so many examples whether that is a volunteer kid that has started with us as a nine year old and is now full time employed as a manager and is absolutely brilliant in what he's doing. It's giving opportunities for some of Our young ones that don't have to then leave this area, but have a brilliant job here and when they're ready, they will fly. And we have been a little part of that journey, which is brilliant.
Anna Warnecke: But we have that also for many volunteers that are involved just out of, you know, they might have missed friendships or lost their husband or just moved up and want to connect with something or want to make a difference for the region. And it's just a very powerful emotional attachment to what we are doing.
Andy Povey: A thousand volunteers, you've probably got a thousand different reasons for people volunteering.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah, but they come because of different reasons. But once they are there, they have this common spirit of kinmen, which is very. It is absolutely safe. So my kids are running around anywhere and everywhere and you never worry about them. I mean, I would never in a big place like this, let my 9 year old out of my sight, but I never have a worry about him on a kid inside. I really couldn't have asked for it running smoother or better. I could have never dreamt it up. So I'm just extremely relieved and very happy. But that does not mean that it wasn't extremely stressful. Just before opening, we still had diggers in the Lost Feather.
Anna Warnecke: The day before, we had a press preview and the eagle was still landing on a digger that was driving along and we're all like, how are we opening this tomorrow? We worked every day, 24 hours a day for weeks and we had an amazing team there. But also even the builders, they were all locals and they were so invested. It was a really fabulous experience. I never wanted to miss out on this. I'm really proud and grateful that I could be part of it.
Andy Povey: You should be. I mean, when I walked in, I. It was like I was walking into a world class experience anywhere in mainland Europe. I think the quality of the attraction, the quality of the build really challenges the best that we have in the uk. So it's absolutely up there, right at the top and worth travelling just to see that.
Anna Warnecke: Oh, that's brilliant. That's really nice to hear. I mean. And the teams are thriving of all the positive comments because. Yeah, well, it's always amazing to hear that something worked out how you wished it.
Andy Povey: Now there's a lot of talk in the industry about experience being the future and I think experiential is one of those words that gets used far too much. Whereas what you're doing is a real live experience. How do you see what you're doing? Are you bucking the trend. Are you leading the next trend? What do you see happening in the rest of the UK market?
Anna Warnecke: Well, I really, I think we are leading the next trend.
Andy Povey: Yeah.
Anna Warnecke: Not that we have done something that nothing has, that hasn't been done before. Life actually shows us the thing that existed, but the quality of how we are doing it. And so many live action shows together and we have a future plan. We are building every year new attractions so there will be big indoor shows coming too. And I really think that people crave for something that is real and that is not AI or generated on a computer. You know there is something about walking along with beautiful pathways with beautiful nature around you and seeing a bird fly that you cannot experience in any way or form or feel when it's on a screen.
Anna Warnecke: So I think we absolutely leading it and Universal will come and they will also build shows, live action shows, which is brilliant because that also means we have a bigger pool of young stuntees that can, you know, actually make money with what they love doing and stay in England. So I, I think it's, we the England's absolutely ready for it and we are just really lucky to be here and already do it.
Andy Povey: I couldn't agree more. I do see, I do anticipate the sort of core level of quality in that live performance arena in day attraction really lifting. I mean we have some world class theater performances in the West End.
Anna Warnecke: Yeah. And you know they're going for a long time and the English audience absolutely is amazed about and loves and I love them. So I think it's just a different way of having a life experience and hopefully it will be as successful as some of the big plays in London.
Andy Povey: You mentioned your future plans. What, what's next? What comes after a very well deserved rest.
Anna Warnecke: So there is two shows in the pipeline already. One of them is the Flambard Village. So the whole village that we bought from Flambards is a Victorian village with 50 shops and there will be an immersive. We're going back to experience, aren't we? Immersive attractions. It will be really, it will be a really good experience and it will be honestly immersive and it will be a story told through Victorian times. Both sides, the beautiful side, the scary sides, the ghost stories, everything. It will be amazing. So that will open next year and then the next one that either next year or the year after is the Lone Centurion which is a Roman show. The Auckland project hub owns Bishops Afford and Bitches Afford was always a very important Fortune for the Roman Empire and Hadrian's also.
Anna Warnecke: It's retelling that being at the very outskirts of the Roman Empire, it was very different to anywhere closer to Rome. So it's retelling that story. And I mean, of course there's going to be a bit of chariot racing in there. So my horses are in the spotlight.
Andy Povey: Again and you're going to do chariot racing for real, aren't you? There's no screens involved in producing that.
Anna Warnecke: No, no screens involved. I can't wait, actually. I love chariot racing and I might be driving them too, actually.
Andy Povey: So, Anna, one thing we ask every guest on Skip the Queue is if you were talking to any other theme park operator or attraction operator in the country at the moment, what would be your one piece of advice for them to look at in their business today?
Anna Warnecke: My advice is employ enthusiastic and smiley people so that the visitor has the best day possible and make sure that you always put the visitor satisfaction ahead of everything else. And I think we have been quite successful with that. And this is how went out. And when we are employing, we don't expect it to be the superstar at something, we train everything else, but the attitude needs to be right and enthusiasm.
Andy Povey: Just creates its own energy, doesn't it?
Anna Warnecke: It's a positive team. It's infectious. I mean, everybody has a smile on their face. You can't be grumpy. It's difficult.
Andy Povey: You know, I'm a very firm believer that as leaders in this industry, we have an absolute duty to enthuse the younger members of our team and our younger colleagues to show them that this can be a fantastic career opportunity.
Anna Warnecke: Also, don't you think? It's really. It's a wonderful feeling, her hearing all the positive feedbacks from the visit and seeing their joy on their faces. There is something very special about that. It's like an injection of happiness every day.
Andy Povey: Very much so, Anna, thank you. I really enjoyed our conversation and I love what you're doing. Listeners, I cannot recommend this highly enough. I love the show and I'm in awe of what the Auckland project are doing to regenerate Bishop Auckland. The ability for culture to lead on a regeneration project, to put something back into society really drives home the positive impact that we can all have.
Listeners, if you enjoyed what you've heard, please take a moment to like or even recommend us on whatever platform you use. If you want to hear more from Skip the Queue, or to listen to the rest of the BALPPA Special series, head over to skipthequeue.fm.
Today's episode was co produced by Sami and Emily from Plaster with Laura from YourCMO. Socials and schedules were all managed by Wenalyn back at Merac and editing and making it all sound good was by Steve Folland. Thank you and goodbye.