Recorded live at AVEA 2025 in Waterford, Ireland, this episode explores how attractions can integrate retail into the overall experience. Paul Marden is joined by Jennifer Kennedy, Michael Dolan, Catherine Toolan, Máirín Walsh, and Dean Kelly about creating authentic, memorable gift shops that go far beyond souvenirs with insights on storytelling, sustainability, and the power of local products. Then Paul takes us to the conference floor to hear from Irish tourism leaders: Charles Coyle of Emerald Park on growth and AI-driven pricing, Suzanne Reid of Christ Church Cathedral on accessibility and a 1,000-year celebration, and Ray Dempsey of Jameson Distillery on inclusion and Dublin’s thriving visitor scene.
Paul Marden heads to the AVEA conference in front of a LIVE audience to find out why gift shops are such an important part of the attraction mix.
Joining him is Jennifer Kennedy, Retail Consultant, JK Consulting and Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company. They discuss why your gift shop is an integral part of your brand and why it needs to be just as good as the experience you have on offer.
This coinsides with the launch of our brand new playbook: ‘The Retail Ready Guide To Going Beyond The Gift Shop’, where you can find out exactly how to improve your online offering to take your ecommerce to the next level.
Download your FREE copy here: https://pages.crowdconvert.co.uk/skip-the-queue-playbook
But that's not all. Paul walks the conference floor and speaks to:
It's a mega episode and one you'll not want to miss.
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.
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Show references:
Jennifer Kennedy — Founder, JK Consulting
Michael Dolan — Managing Director, Shamrock Gift Company
Catherine Toolan — Managing Director, Guinness Storehouse & Global Head of Brand Homes, Diageo
Máirín Walsh — Operations Manager, Waterford Museum
Dean Kelly — Photography & Visitor Experience Specialist
Charles Coyle — Managing Director, Emerald Park
Susanne Reid — CEO, Christ Church Cathedral Dublin
Ray Dempsey — General Manager, Jameson Distillery
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast that tells the stories behind the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. In today's episode, I'm at the AVEA 2025 conference in Waterford, Ireland, and we're talking about gift shop best practices. With Jennifer Kennedy from JK Consulting, a tourism and retail consultancy. And Jennifer led retail at Guinness Storehouse for more years than she would care to mention, I think. And we're also here with Michael Dolan, MD of Shamrock Gift Company, who has brought along the most amazing array of gift shop merchandise, which I'm sure we'll get into talking a little something about later on. And I've also got an amazing live audience. Say hello, everybody.
Everyone: Hello.
Paul Marden: There we go. So we always start with icebreaker that I don't prepare the two of you. Now this is probably a very unfair question for the pair of you, actually. What's the quirkiest souvenir you've ever bought? I can think of those little, the ones that you get in Spain are the little pooping santas.
Jennifer Kennedy: I have a thing for Christmas decorations when I go on travel, so for me, there always tends to be something around having a little decoration on my tree every year. That if I've had one or two holidays or I've been away, that has some little thing that comes back that ends up on the tree of Christmas. I have a lovely little lemon from Amalfi that's a Christmas decoration, and so you know, so a little kind of quirky things like that.
Paul Marden: Michael, what about you?
Michael Dolan: One of our designers who will remain nameless? She has a thing about poo. So everyone brings her back to some poo relation.
Paul Marden: Sadly, there's quite a lot of that around at the moment, isn't there? That's a bit disappointing. First question then, what's the point of a gift shop? If I put that in a more eloquent way, why are gift shops such an important part of the attraction mix?
Jennifer Kennedy: Okay, it was from my point of view, the gift shop in an attraction or a destination is the ultimate touch point that the brand has to leave a lasting memory when visitors go away. So for me, they're intrinsically important in the complete 360 of how your brand shows up— as a destination or an attraction. And without a really good gift shop and really good product to take away from it, you're letting your brand down. And it's an integral piece that people can share. From a marketing point of view, every piece of your own product that's been developed, that's taken away to any part of the world can sit in someone's kitchen. It can be in multiple forms. It can be a fridge magnet. It could be a tea towel. It could be anything. But it's a connection to your brand and the home that they visited when they chose to be wherever they're visiting. So for me, I'm very passionate about the fact that your gift shop should be as good as everything else your experience has to offer. So that's my view on it.
Michael Dolan: Sometimes it's neglected when people create a new visitor attraction. They don't put enough time into the retail element. I think that's changing, and a very good example of that would be Game of Thrones in Banbridge. We worked with them for two years developing the range, but also the shop. So the shop reflects the... I actually think the shop is the best part of the whole experience. But the shop reflects the actual whole experience.
Jennifer Kennedy: The teaming.
Michael Dolan: The teaming. So you have banners throughout the shop, the music, the lighting, it looks like a dungeon. All the display stands have swords in them, reflecting the theme of the entrance.
Jennifer Kennedy: Yeah, it's a good example of how a brand like that has incorporated the full essence and theme of why they exist into their physical retail space.
Paul Marden: They definitely loosened a few pounds out of my pocket.
Michael Dolan: Another good example is Titanic Belfast. So they spent 80 million on that visitor attraction, which was opened in 2012, but they forgot about the shop. So the architect who designed the building designed the shop that looked like something out of the Tate Gallery. Yeah, and we went and said, 'This shop is not functional; it won't work for our type of product.' They said, 'We don't have anything in the budget to redevelop the shop.' So we paid a Dublin architect to redesign the shop. So the shop you have today, that design was paid for by Shamrock Gift Company. And if you've been in the shop, it's all brass, wood, ropes. So it's an integral part of the overall experience. But unfortunately... you can miss the shop on the way out.
Paul Marden: Yeah, it is very easy to walk out the building and not engage in the shop itself. It's a bit like a dessert for a meal, isn't it? The meal's not complete if you've not had a dessert. And I think the gift shop experience is a little bit like that. The trip to the experience isn't finished. If you haven't exited through the gate.
Michael Dolan: But it's the lasting memories that people bring back to the office in New York, put the mug on the table to remind people of when they're in Belfast or Dublin to go to. You know, storehouse or Titanic. So those last impressions are indelibly, you know, set.
Paul Marden: So we've already said the positioning of the shop then is super important, how it feels, but product is super important, isn't it? What product you fill into the shop is a make or break experience? How do you go about curating the right product?
Michael Dolan: Most important is authenticity. You know, it has to be relevant to the visitor attraction. So it's not a question of just banging out a few key rings and magnets. So I brought you along some samples there. So we're doing two new ranges, one for Titanic and one for the Royal Yacht Britannia, and they're totally different. But reflect the personality of each attraction.
Paul Marden: Absolutely.
Michael Dolan: I mean, a good example, we worked together or collaborated together on many, many projects in Guinness. But we also worked in St. Patrick's Cathedral.
Jennifer Kennedy: Yeah.
Michael Dolan: You were the consultant.
Jennifer Kennedy: Yeah, yeah. So I suppose, again, from the product point of view. Yeah, if you can root product in why the experience exists. So in that example, a cathedral is a great example of how you can create really great product by utilising. Well, the main reason people are there is because this amazing building exists and the historic elements of it. So I suppose to make it real, some examples of products that connected with the audience in that environment are things like a little stone coaster. But the stone coaster is a replica of the floor you're standing on. So I suppose the other balance in attractions is realistic price points and realistic products. So there's no point in creating a range of products that's outside the price point of what your visitors are prepared to pay. So it's that fine balance of creating product that connects with them, which is, I'm using the cathedral as an example because you've got architraves, you've got stained glass windows, you've got stunning tiles. So all the elements of the fabric of that building. Can be utilised to create really beautiful products, but castles, you know, cathedrals, all of those sorts of spaces.
Jennifer Kennedy: When we start talking about product, always we go to, 'why are we here?' And also the storytelling elements. There's some beautiful stories that can, I can give you another really great example of a product that was created for another cathedral, which was... So in cathedral spaces, there's all these stunning doors that run the whole way through, like they're spectacular; they're like pieces of art in their own right. And every one of them has a very unique ornate key that unlocks each door. So one of the products that did one of the cathedrals was we wanted to create a ring of brass keys with replicas of all the keys in the cathedral. But as we were progressing, we forgot at the start— it was like we forgot to tell them to scale them down. They weren't the same size as all the keys in the cathedral. So it was a very intrinsically specific gift to this particular cathedral. And it's been used ever since as kind of the special gift they give to people who come to visit from all over the world. They get quite emotional about this particular gift because it's like this is the actual replica of all the keys to all the doors in the cathedral.
Jennifer Kennedy: So it's a product that's completely born. It can never be replicated anywhere else. And it's completely unique to that particular space. And I think that's the power of, for me, that's what authenticity feels and looks like in these environments. It has to be connected to the fabric of why you exist.
Paul Marden: Yeah, so I was at Big Pit in Wales six months ago, I think it was. Museums Wales are redeveloping all of their gift shops and they are going through exactly that process that you're talking about, but bringing it back to the place itself because all, I think, it's six of their museums, the gift shops had much the same set of product. They described it as, you know, you were just walking into a generic Welsh gift shop with the dressed lady.
Jennifer Kennedy: And it's hard— like it really takes an awful lot of work— like it doesn't just happen, like you really have to put a lot of thought and planning into what our product should and could look like. And then, when you've aligned on with the team of people managing and running these businesses, that this is the direction you want to take, then it's the operational element of it. It's about sourcing, MOQs, and price, and all of that stuff that comes into it. Minimum order quantities.
Michael Dolan: That's where we come in. So, you know, we met Jennifer in St. Patrick's and we met Liz then, we met the Dean. So we really sat around and talked about what were the most important elements in the cathedral that we wanted to celebrate in product.
Michael Dolan: And St. Patrick obviously was the obvious number one element. Then they have a harp stained glass window. And then they have a shamrock version of that as well. So they were the three elements that we hit on. You know, it took a year to put those three ranges together. So we would have started out with our concept drawings, which we presented to the team in St. Patrick's. They would have approved them. Then we would have talked to them about the size of the range and what products we were looking at. So then we would have done the artwork for those separate ranges, brought them back in to get them approved, go to sampling, bring the samples back in, then sit down and talk about pricing, minimum order quantities, delivery times.
Michael Dolan: So the sample, you know, so that all goes out to order and then it arrives in about four or five months later into our warehouse. So we carry all the risk. We design everything, we source it, make sure that it's safely made, all the tests are confirmed that the products are good. In conformity with all EU legislation. It'll be in our warehouse and then it's called off the weekly basis. So we carry, we do everything. So one stop shop.
Paul Marden: So the traction isn't even sitting on stock that they've invested in. We know what we're doing and we're quite happy to carry the risk. So one of the things we were talking about just before we started the episode was the challenges of sourcing locally. It's really important, isn't it? But it can be challenging to do that.
Jennifer Kennedy: It can. And, you know, but I would say in recent years, there's a lot more creators and makers have come to the fore after COVID. So in kind of more... Specifically, kind of artisan kind of product types. So things like candles are a great example where, you know, now you can find great candle makers all over Ireland with, you know, small minimum quantity requirements. And also they can bespoke or tailor it to your brand. So if you're a museum or if you're a, again, whatever the nature of your brand is, a national store or whatever, you can have a small batch made. Which lets you have something that has provenance. And here it's Irish made, it's Irish owned. And then there's some, you know, it just it gives you an opportunity.
Jennifer Kennedy: Unfortunately, we're never going to be in a position where we can source everything we want in Ireland. It just isn't realistic. And commercially, it's not viable. As much as you can, you should try and connect with the makers and creators that they are available and see if small batches are available. And they're beautiful to have within your gift store, but they also have to be the balance of other commercial products that will have to be sourced outside of Ireland will also have to play a significant role as well.
Máirín Walsh: I think there needs to be a good price point as well. Like, you know, we find that in our museum, that, you know, if something is above 20, 25 euro, the customer has to kind of really think about purchasing it, where if it's 20 euro or under, you know, it's...
Michael Dolan: More of an input item, yeah.
Máirín Walsh: Yes, exactly, yeah.
Paul Marden: And so when it's over that price point, that's when you need to be sourcing locally again.
Máirín Walsh: It's a harder sell. You're kind of maybe explaining a bit more to them and trying to get them to purchase it. You know, they have to think about it.
Jennifer Kennedy: But it's also good for the storytelling elements as well because it helps you engage. So I've often found as well that even train the teams and the customer service. It's actually a lovely space to have, to be able to use it as part of storytelling that we have this locally made or it's made in Cork or wherever it's coming from, that it's Irish made.
Máirín Walsh: We have, what have we got? We've kind of got scarves and that and we have local— we had candles a few years ago actually. I think they were made or... up the country or whatever. But anyway, it was at Reginald's Tower and there were different kinds of candles of different attractions around and they really connected with your audience.
Michael Dolan: So 20% of our turnover would be food and all that is made in Ireland. Virtually all of that is sourced locally here in Ireland. And that's a very important part of our overall product portfolio and growing as well.
Paul Marden: Is it important to serve different audiences with the right product? So I'm thinking... Making sure that there's pocket money items in there for kids, because often when they come to a museum or attraction, it's their first time they ever get to spend their own money on a transaction. Yeah, that would be their first memory of shopping. So giving them what they need, but at the same time having that 25 euro and over price point. To have a real set piece item is?
Jennifer Kennedy: I would say that's very specific to the brand.
Paul Marden: Really?
Jennifer Kennedy: Yes, because some brands can't actually sell products or shouldn't be selling products to children.
Paul Marden: Really? I'm looking at the Guinness items at the end of the table.
Jennifer Kennedy: So it depends on the brand. So obviously, in many of the destinations around Ireland, some of them are quite heavily family-oriented. And absolutely in those environments where you've got gardens, playgrounds or theme parks. Absolutely. You have to have that range of product that's very much tailored to young families and children. In other environments, not necessarily. But you still need to have a range that appeals to the masses. Because you will have visitors from all walks of life and with all perspectives. So it's more about having something. I'm going to keep bringing it back to it. It's specific to why this brand is here. And if you can create product within a fair price point, and Mairin is absolutely right. The balance of how much your products cost to the consumer will make or break how your retail performs. And in most destinations, what you're actually aiming to do is basket size. You want them to go away with three, four, five products from you, not necessarily one.
Jennifer Kennedy: Because if you think about it, that's more beneficial for the brand. I mean, most people are buying for gifting purposes. They're bringing things back to multiple people. So, if I'm able to pick up a nice candle and it's eight or 10 euros, well, I might buy three of them if it's a beautiful candle in a nice package. Whereas, if I went in and the only option available to me was a 35-euro candle, I probably might buy that, but I'm only buying one product. And I'm only giving that to either myself or one other person. Whereas, if you can create a range that's a good price, but it's also appealing and very connected to why they came to visit you in the first place, then that's a much more powerful, for the brand point of view, that's a much more... Powerful purchasing options are available to have a basket size that's growing.
Michael Dolan: We worked together in the National Stud in Kildare, so we did a great kids range of stationery, which worked really well. We've just done a new range for the GAA museum, all stationery-related, because they get a lot of kids. Again, we would have collaborated on that.
Jennifer Kennedy: And actually, the natural studs are a really nice example as well, because from even a textile point of view, you can lean into equine as the, so you can do beautiful products with ponies and horses. Yeah. You know, so again, some brands make it very, it's easy to see the path that you can take with product. And then others are, you know, you have to think harder. It's a little bit more challenging. So, and particularly for cultural and heritage sites, then that really has to be grounded in what are the collections, what is on offer in these sites, in these museums, in these heritage sites, and really start to unravel the stories that you can turn into product.
Paul Marden: But a product isn't enough, is it?
Jennifer Kennedy: Absolutely not.
Paul Marden: Set making, merchandising, storytelling, they all engage the customer, don't they?
Jennifer Kennedy: 100%.
Paul Marden: Where have you seen that being done well in Ireland?
Michael Dolan: Get a store is the preeminent example, I would think. I mean, it's a stunning shop. Have you met Catherine too?
Paul Marden: No, not yet. Lovely to meet you, Catherine.
Michael Dolan: Catherine is in charge of getting the stories.
Paul Marden: Okay. Any other examples that aren't, maybe, sat at the table? Game of Thrones is a really good example and Titanic.
Michael Dolan: Game of Thrones. I think Titanic's good. The new shop in Trinity College is very strong, I think. So it's a temporary digital exhibition while they're revamping the library. They've done an excellent job in creating a wonderful new shop, even on a temporary basis.
Jennifer Kennedy: I would say Crowe Park as well. The GAA museum there has undergone a full refurbishment and it's very tailored towards their audience. So they're very, it's high volume, very specific to their... And the look and feel is very much in keeping with the nature of the reason why people go to Crowe Park. I would say the Irish National Asteroid as well. And Colmar Abbey, Cliffs of Moher. We've got some really great offers all over the island of Ireland.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I was at W5 recently in Belfast and I think that is a brilliant example of what a Science Centre gift shop could be like. Because often there will be the kind of generic stuff that you'll see in any attraction— a notebook with rubber and a pencil— but they also had lots of, there were lots of science-led toys and engineering-led toys, so they had... big Lego section. It was like going into a proper toy shop. It was just a really impressive gift shop that you could imagine engaging a kid.
Catherine Toolan: And if I could come in there for an example outside of Ireland, you've got the House of Lego in Billund. I don't know if anybody has been there, but they've got a customised range, which is only available. Really? Yes, and it's so special. They've got a really unique building, so the Lego set is in the shape of the building. They've got their original dock. But the retail store in that space, it's very geared towards children as Lego is, but also imagination play. So they've done a brilliant job on looking at, you know, the texture of their product, the colour of their product. And whilst it's usually geared to children, it's also geared to adult lovers of Lego. So it's beautiful. Huge tech as well. They've incredible RFID wristbands, which you get from your ticket at the beginning of the experience. So all of your photo ops and everything you can download from the RFID wristband. Very cool.
Jennifer Kennedy: Actually, I would say it's probably from a tech point of view, one of the best attractions I've been to in recent years. Like, it's phenomenal. I remember going there the year it opened first because it was fascinating. I have two boys who are absolutely Lego nuts. And I just— we went to the home of LEGO in Billund when it opened that year and I just was blown away. I had never experienced, and I go to experiences everywhere, but I've never, from a tech point of view and a brand engagement perspective, understood the nature, the type of product that they deliver. For me, it's, like I said, I tell everyone to go to Billund.
Paul Marden: Really? We've got such amazing jobs, haven't we? However, as you're both talking, I'm thinking you're a bit like me. You don't get to go and enjoy the experience for the experience's own sake because you're looking at what everybody's doing.
Jennifer Kennedy: But can I actually just add to that? There's another one in the Swarovski Crystal in Austria.
Paul Marden: Really?
Jennifer Kennedy: That is phenomenal. And in terms of their retail space, it's like, I like a bit of sparkle, so I'm not going to lie. It was like walking into heaven. And their retail offering there is world-class in that store. And the whole brand experience from start to finish, which is what you're always trying to achieve. It's the full 360 of full immersion. You're literally standing inside a giant crystal. It's like being in a dream. Right. A crystal, sparkly dream from start to finish. And then, every year, they partner and collaborate with whoever— designers, musicians, whoever's iconic or, you know, very... present in that year or whatever. And they do these wonderful collaborations and partnerships with artists, designers, you name it.
Paul Marden: Sorry, Catherine, there you go.
Catherine Toolan: Thank you very much. It's on my list of places to go, but I do know the team there and what they're also doing is looking at the premiumization. So they close their retail store for high net worth individuals to come in and buy unique and special pieces. You know, they use their core experience for the daytime. And we all talk about the challenges. I know, Tom, you talk about this, you know, how do you scale up visitor experience when you're at capacity and still make sure you've a brilliant net promoter score and that the experience of the customer is fantastic. So that is about sweating the acid and you know it's that good, better, best. You know they have something for everybody but they have that halo effect as well. So it's really cool.
Paul Marden: Wow. Thank you. I'm a bit of a geek. I love a bit of technology. What do you think technology is doing to the gift shop experience? Are there new technologies that are coming along that are going to fundamentally change the way the gift shop experience works?
Jennifer Kennedy: I think that's rooted in the overall experience. So I don't think it's a separate piece. I think there's loads of things out there now where you can, you know, virtual mirrors have been around for years and all these other really interesting. The whole gamification piece, if you're in an amazing experience and you're getting prompts and things to move an offer today, but so that's that's been around for quite some time. I'm not sure that it's been fully utilised yet across the board, especially in I would say there's a way to go in how it influences the stores in Ireland in attractions at the moment. There'll be only a handful who I'd say are using technology, mainly digital screens, is what I'm experiencing and seeing generally. And then, if there is a big attraction, some sort of prompts throughout that and how you're communicating digitally through the whole experience to get people back into the retail space.
Paul Marden: Yeah, I can imagine using tech to be able to prompt somebody at the quiet times of the gift shop.
Michael Dolan: Yeah, also Guinness now you can order a pint glass with your own message on it in advance. It's ready for you when you finish your tour. You go to a locker and you just open the locker and you walk out with your glass.
Catherine Toolan: Could I just say, though, that you just don't open a locker like it's actually lockers? There's a lot of customisation to the lockers because the idea came from the original Parcel Motel. So the locker is actually you key in a code and then when you open the customised locker, there's a Guinness quote inside it and your personalised glass is inside it. And the amount of customers and guests that we get to say, could we lock the door again? We want to actually open it and have that. whole experience so you know that's where I think in you know and one of the questions that would be really interesting to talk about is you know, what about self-scanning and you know, the idea of checkouts that are not having the human connection. Is that a thing that will work when you've got real experiences? I don't know. But we know that the personalisation of the engraved glasses and how we've custom designed the lockers— not to just be set of lockers— has made that difference. So they're very unique, they're colourful, they're very Guinnessified. And of course, the little personal quote that you get when you open the locker from our archives, make that a retail experience that's elevated.
Paul Marden: Wow.
Jennifer Kennedy: But I would also say to your point on that, that the actual, the real magic is also in the people, in the destinations, because it's not like gift shops and destinations and experiences. They're not like high street and they shouldn't be. It should be a very different experience that people are having when they've paid to come and participate with you in your destination. So I actually think technology inevitably plays a role and it's a support and it will create lovely quirks and unusual little elements throughout the years.
Paul Marden: I think personalisation is great.
Jennifer Kennedy: And personalisation, absolutely. But the actual, like I would be quite against the idea of automating checkout and payouts in gift shops, in destinations, because for me... That takes away the whole essence of the final touch point is actually whoever's talked to you when you did that transaction and whoever said goodbye or asked how your experience was or did you enjoy yourself? So those you can't you can't replace that with without a human personal touch. So for me, that's intrinsically important, that it has to be retained, that the personal touch is always there for the goodbye.
Dean Kelly: I'm very happy that you brought up the human touch. I'm a photo company, I do pictures. And all the time when we're talking to operators, they're like, 'Can we make it self-serve? Can we get rid of the staffing costs?' I'm like, 'I'm a photographer. Photographers take pictures of people. We need each other to engage, react, and put the groups together. No, we don't want the staff costs. But I'm like, it's not about the staff costs. It's about the customer's experience. So all day long, our challenge is, more so in the UK now, because we operate in the UK, and everybody over there is very, we don't want the staff.' And I think, if you lose the staff engagement, especially taking a picture, you lose the memory and you lose the moment. And photographers have a really good job to do, a very interesting job, is where to capture people together. And if you lose that person— touch point of getting the togetherness— You just have people touching the screen, which they might as well be on their phone.
Paul Marden: And the photo won't look as good, will it? Anybody could take a photo, but it takes a photographer to make people look like they're engaged and happy and in the moment.
Dean Kelly: Yeah, exactly, and a couple of other points that you mentioned— with the brand, personalisation, gamification, all that kind of cool, juicy stuff, all the retail stuff, people going home with the memory, the moment, all that stuff's cool, but nobody mentioned photos until Cashin, you mentioned photos. We've had a long conversation with photos for a long time, and we'll probably be still chatting for another long time as well. But photography is a super, super retail revenue stream. But it's not about the revenue, it's about the moment and the magic.
Jennifer Kennedy: Yeah, you're capturing the magic.
Dean Kelly: Capturing it. And fair enough that what you guys do at Shamrock is very interesting because you talk to the operators. You kind of go, 'What gifts are going to work for your visitors?' And you turn that into a product. And that's exactly what we do with all the experiences. We take pictures.
Dean Kelly: But what's your demographic saying? What's your price points? What's your brand? What's your message? And let's turn that into a personalised souvenir, put the people in the brand, and let them take it home and engage with it.
Paul Marden: So... I think one of the most important things is how you blend the gift shop with the rest of the experience. You were giving a good example of exiting through the gift shop. It's a very important thing, isn't it? But if you put it in the wrong place, you don't get that. How do you blend the gift shop into the experience?
Jennifer Kennedy: Well, I would say I wouldn't call it a blend. For me, the retail element of the brand should be a wow. Like it should be as invaluable, as important as everything else. So my perspective would be get eyes on your retail offering sooner rather than later. Not necessarily that they will participate there and then.
Jennifer Kennedy: The visual and the impact it has on seeing a wow— this looks like an amazing space. This looks like with all these products, but it's also— I was always chasing the wow. I want you to go, wow, this looks amazing. Because, to me, that's when you've engaged someone that they're not leaving until they've gotten in there. It is important that people can potentially move through it at the end. And, you know, it depends on the building. It depends on the structure. You know, a lot of these things are taken out of your hands. You've got to work with what you've got.
Jennifer Kennedy: But you have to work with what you've got, not just to blend it, to make it stand out as exceptional. Because that's actually where the magic really starts. And it doesn't matter what brand that is. The aim should always be that your retail offering is exceptional from every touch point. And it shouldn't be obvious that we've spent millions in creating this wonderful experience. And now you're being shoehorned into the poor relation that was forgotten a little bit and now has ten years later looks a bit ramshackle. And we're trying to figure out why we don't get what we should out of it.
Michael Dolan: And it has to be an integral part of the whole experience.
Jennifer Kennedy: Yeah, and I think for new experiences that are in planning stages, I've seen that more and more in recent years. Now, where I was being called to retrofix or rip out things going, this doesn't work, I'm like, okay, well, we have to retro do this. Now, when people are doing new builds or new investments into new spaces, I'm getting those calls at the planning stages where it's like, we've allocated this amount of space to retail. Do you think that's enough? And I don't think I've ever said yes, ever. At every single turn, I'm like... No, it's not enough. And, you know, what's your anticipated football? Oh, that's the numbers start to play a role in it. But it's not just about that. It's about the future proofing. It's like what happens in five years, 10 years, 15? Because I've been very lucky to work in buildings where it's not easy to figure out where you're going to go next. And particularly heritage sites and cultural heritage. Like I can't go in and knock a hole in the crypt in Christchurch Cathedral. But I need a bigger retail space there.
Jennifer Kennedy: The earlier you start to put retail as a central commercial revenue stream in your business, the more eyes you have on it from the get-go, the more likely it is that it will be successful. Not now, not in five years, not in ten years, but that you're building blocks for this, what can become. Like it should be one of your strongest revenue streams after ticket sales because that's what it can become. But you have to go at it as this is going to be amazing.
Catherine Toolan: I think it's important that it's not a hard sell and that's in your face. And, you know, that's where, when you think about the consumer journey, we always think about the behavioural science of the beginning, the middle, and the end. And people remember three things. You know, there's lots of other touch points. But if retail is a really hard sell throughout the experience, I don't think the net promoter score of your overall experience will, you know, come out, especially if you're, you know, and we're not a children's destination. An over 25 adult destination at the Guinness Storehouse and at our alcohol brand homes. But what's really important is that it's authentic, it's really good, and it's highly merchandised, and that it's unique. I think that uniqueness is it— something that you can get that you can't get anywhere else. You know, how do you actually, one of the things that we would have done if we had it again, we would be able to make our retail store available to the domestic audience, to the public without buying a ticket. So, you know, you've got that opportunity if your brand is the right brand that you can have walk-in off the high street, for example.
Catherine Toolan: So, you know, there's so many other things that you can think about because that's an extension of your revenue opportunity where you don't have to come in to do the whole experience. And that is a way to connect the domestic audience, which is something I know a lot of the members of the Association, AVEA are trying to do. You know, how do we engage and connect and get repeat visits and and retail is a big opportunity to do that, especially at gifting season.
Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah, sustainability is increasingly important to the narrative of the whole retail experience, isn't it? How do you make sure that we're not going about just selling plastic tat that nobody's going to look after?
Michael Dolan: We've made this a core value for Shamrock Gift Company, so we've engaged with a company called Clearstream Solutions, the same company that Guinness Store has. have worked with them. So it's a long-term partnership. So they've measured our carbon footprint from 2019 to 2023. So we've set ourselves the ambitious target of being carbon neutral by 2030.
Michael Dolan: So just some of the elements that we've engaged in. So we put 700 solar panels on our roof as of last summer. All our deliveries in Dublin are done with electric vans, which we've recently purchased. All the lights in the building now are LED. Motion-sensored as well. All the cars are electric or that we've purchased recently, and we've got a gas boiler. So we've also now our shipments from China we're looking at biodiesel. So that's fully sustainable. And we also, where we can't use biodiesel, we're doing carbon offsetting as well.
Paul Marden: So a lot of work being done in terms of the cost of CO2 of the transport that you're doing. What about the product itself? How do you make sure that the product itself is inherently something that people are going to treasure and is not a throwaway item?
Michael Dolan: We're using more sustainable materials, so a lot more stone, a lot more wood.
Paul Marden: Oh, really?
Michael Dolan: Yeah. Also, it begins with great design. Yeah. So, you know, and obviously working with our retail partners, make sure that the goods are very well designed, very well manufactured. So we're working with some wonderful, well, best in class manufacturers around the world. Absolutely.
Jennifer Kennedy: I think as well, if... you can, and it's becoming easier to do, if you can collaborate with some creators and makers that are actually within your location.
Jennifer Kennedy: Within Ireland, there's a lot more of that happening, which means sourcing is closer to home. But you also have this other economy that's like the underbelly of the craft makers market in Ireland, which is fabulous, which needs to be brought to the fore. So collaborations with brands can also form a very integral part of product development that's close to home and connected to people who are here—people who are actually creating product in Ireland.
Paul Marden: This is just instinct, not knowledge at all. But I would imagine that when you're dealing with those local crafters and makers, that they are inherently more sustainable because they're creating things local to you. It's not just the distance that's...
Jennifer Kennedy: Absolutely, but in any instances that I'm aware of that I've been involved with, anyway, even the materials and their mythology, yeah, is all grounded in sustainability and which is fabulous to see. Like, there's more and there's more and more coming all the time.
Michael Dolan: We've got rid of 3 million bags a year. Key rings, mags used to be individually bagged. And now there are 12 key rings in a bag that's biodegradable. That alone is 2 million bags.
Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it? When you look at something as innocuous as the bag itself that it's packaged in before it's shipped out. You can engineer out of the supply chain quite a lot of unnecessary packaging
Michael Dolan: And likewise, then for the retailer, they don't have to dispose of all that packaging. So it's a lot easier and cleaner to put the product on the shelf. Yes.
Paul Marden: Something close to my heart, online retail. Have you seen examples where Irish attractions have extended their gift shop experience online, particularly well?
Jennifer Kennedy: For instance, there are a few examples, but what I was thinking more about on that particular thought was around the nature of the brand again and the product that, in my experience, the brands that can do that successfully tend to have something on offer that's very nostalgic or collectible. Or memorabilia and I think there are some examples in the UK potentially that are where they can be successful online because they have a brand or a product that people are collecting.
Paul Marden: Yeah, so one of my clients is Jane Austen House, only about two miles away from where I live. And it blew me away the importance of their online shop to them. They're tiny. I mean, it is a little cottage in the middle of Hampshire, but they have an international audience for their gift shop. And it's because they've got this really, really committed audience of Jane Austen fans who want to buy something from the house. Then everybody talks about the Tank Museum in Dorset.
Paul Marden: Who make a fortune selling fluffy tank slippers and all you could possibly imagine memorabilia related to tanks. Because again, it's that collection of highly curated products and this really, really committed audience of people worldwide.
Catherine Toolan: The Tank were here last year presenting at the AVEA conference and it was such an incredible story about their success and, you know, how they went from a very small museum with a lot of support from government to COVID to having an incredible retail store, which is now driving their commercial success.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Nick has done a load of work. Yeah, that leads me nicely onto a note. So listeners, for a long time, Skip the Queue has been totally focused on the podcast. But today we have launched our first playbook. Which is hopefully the first of many. But the playbook that we're launching today is all about how attractions can focus on best practice for gift shop e-commerce. So we work with partners, Rubber Cheese, Navigate, and Stephen Spencer Associates. So Steve and his team has helped us to contribute to some sections to the guide around, how do you curate your product? How do you identify who the audience is? How do you create that collection? The team at Rubber Cheese talk about the mechanics of how do you put it online and then our friends at Navigate help you to figure out what the best way is to get bums on seats. So it was a crackpot idea of mine six months ago to put it together, and it is now huge.
Paul Marden: It's packed full of advice, and that's gone live today. So you can go over to skipthequeue.fm and click on the Playbooks link there to go and download that. Thank you. So, Jennifer, Michael, it has been absolutely wonderful to talk to both of you. Thank you to my audience. You've also been fabulous. Well done. And what a packed episode that was. I get the feeling you two quite enjoy gift shops and retailing. You could talk quite a lot about it.
Jennifer Kennedy: I mean, I love it.
Paul Marden: That didn't come over at all.
Jennifer Kennedy: Well, I just think it's such a lovely way of connecting with people and keeping a connection, particularly from a brand point of view. It should be the icing on the cake, you know?
Paul Marden: You're not just a market store salesperson, are you?
Jennifer Kennedy: And I thoroughly believe that the most successful ones are because the experiences that they're a part of sow the seeds. They plant the love, the emotion, the energy. All you're really doing is making sure that that magic stays with people when they go away. The brand experience is the piece that's actually got them there in the first place.
Paul Marden: Now let's go over to the conference floor to hear from some Irish operators and suppliers.
Charles Coyle: I'm Charles Coyle. I'm the managing director of Emerald Park. We're Ireland's only theme park and zoo. We opened in November 2010, which shows you how naive and foolish we were that we opened a visitor attraction in the middle of winter. Fortunately, we survived it.
Paul Marden: But you wouldn't open a visitor attraction in the middle of summer, so give yourself a little bit of a run-up to it. It's not a bad idea.
Charles Coyle: Well, that's true, actually. You know what? I'll say that from now on, that we had the genius to open in the winter. We're open 15 years now, and we have grown from very small, humble aspirations of maybe getting 150,000 people a year to we welcomed 810,000 last year. And we'll probably be in and around the same this year as well.
Paul Marden: Wowzers, that is really impressive. So we are here on the floor. We've already heard some really interesting talks. We've been talking about AI in the most recent one. What can we expect to happen for you in the season coming in?
Charles Coyle: Well, we are hopefully going to be integrating a lot of AI. There's possibly putting in a new booking system and things like that. A lot of that will have AI dynamic pricing, which has got a bad rap recently, but it has been done for years and years in hotels.
Paul Marden: Human nature, if you ask people, should I be punished for travelling during the summer holidays and visiting in a park? No, that sounds terrible. Should I be rewarded for visiting during a quiet period? Oh, yes! Yes, I should definitely. It's all about perspective, isn't it? Very much so. And it is how much you don't want to price gouge people. You've got to be really careful. But I do think dynamic pricing has its place.
Charles Coyle: Oh, absolutely. I mean, a perfect example of it is right now, our top price is not going to go any higher, but it'll just be our lower price will be there more constantly, you know, and we'll... Be encouraging people to come in on the Tuesdays and Wednesdays, as you said, rewarding people for coming in at times in which we're not that busy and they're probably going to have a better day as a result.
Susanne Reid: Hi, Suzanne Reid here. I'm the CEO at Christchurch Cathedral, Dublin. What are you here to get out of the conference? First and foremost, the conference is a great opportunity every year to... catch up with people that you may only see once a year from all corners of the country and it's also an opportunity to find out what's new and trending within tourism. We've just come from a really energising session on AI and also a very thought-provoking session on crisis management and the dangers of solar panels.
Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, the story of We the Curious is definitely an interesting one. So we've just come off the back of the summer season. So how was that for you?
Susanne Reid:Summer season started slower than we would have liked this year in 2025, but the two big American football matches were very strong for us in Dublin. Dublin had a reasonable season, I would say, and we're very pleased so far on the 13th of the month at how October is playing out. So hoping for a very strong finish to the year. So coming up to Christmas at Christchurch, we'll have a number of cathedral events. So typically our carol concerts, they tend to sell out throughout the season. Then we have our normal pattern of services and things as well.
Paul Marden: I think it's really important, isn't it? You have to think back to this being a place of worship. Yes, it is a visitor attraction. Yes, that's an aside, isn't it? And the reason it is a place of worship.
Susanne Reid: I think that's obviously back to what our earlier speaker was talking about today. That's our charitable purpose, the promotion of religion, Christianity. However, you know, Christchurch is one of the most visited attractions in the city.
Susanne Reid: Primarily, people do come because it will be there a thousand years in 2028. So there is, you know, the stones speak really. And, you know, one of the sessions I've really benefited from this morning was around accessible tourism. And certainly that's a journey we're on at the cathedral because, you know, a medieval building never designed for access, really.
Paul Marden: No, not hugely.
Susanne Reid: Not at all. So that's part of our programming and our thinking and our commitment to the city and to those that come to it from our local communities. But also from further afield, that they can come and enjoy the splendour of this sacred space.
Paul Marden: I've been thinking long and hard, and been interviewing people, especially people like We The Curious, where they're coming into their 25th anniversary. They were a Millennium Project. I hadn't even thought about interviewing an attraction that was a thousand years old. A genuine millennium project.
Susanne Reid: Yeah, so we're working towards that, Paul. And, you know, obviously there's a committee in-house thinking of how we might celebrate that. One of the things that, you know, I know others may have seen elsewhere, but... We've commissioned a Lego builder to build a Lego model of the cathedral. There will obviously be some beautiful music commissioned to surround the celebration of a thousand years of Christchurch at the heart of the city. There'll be a conference. We're also commissioning a new audio tour called the ACE Tour, Adults, Children and Everyone, which will read the cathedral for people who have no sense of what they're looking at when they maybe see a baptismal font, for example. You know, we're really excited about this and we're hoping the city will be celebratory mood with us in 2028.
Paul Marden: Well, maybe you can bring me back and I'll come and do an episode and focus on your thousand year anniversary.
Susanne Reid: You'd be so welcome.
Paul Marden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Suzanne.
Paul Marden: I am back on the floor. We have wrapped up day one. And I am here with Ray Dempsey from Jameson Distillery. Ray, what's it been like today?
Ray Dempsey: Paul, it's been a great day. I have to say, I always loved the AVEA conference. It brings in such great insights into our industry and into our sector. And it's hosted here in Waterford, a city that I'm a native of. And, you know, seeing it through the eyes of a tourist is just amazing, actually, because normally I fly through here. And I don't have the chance to kind of stop and think, but the overall development of Waterford and the presentation from the Waterford County Council was really, really good. It's fantastic. They have a plan. A plan that really is driving tourism. Waterford, as a tourist destination, whereas before, you passed through Waterford. It was Waterford Crystal's stop and that was it. But they have put so much into the restoration of buildings, the introduction of lovely artisan products, very complimentary to people coming to here, whether it is for a day, a weekend, or a week. Fantastic.
Paul Marden: What is it? We're in the middle of October and it's a bit grey and drizzly out there. But let's be fair, the town has been packed. The town has been packed.With coaches outside, so my hotel this morning full of tourists.
Ray Dempsey: Amazing, yeah it's a great hub, a great hub, and they've done so much with the city to enable that, and you see, as you pass down the keys, you know that new bridge there to enable extra traffic coming straight into the heart of the city, it's fantastic. We're all learning from it, and hopefully, bring it all back to our own hometowns.
Paul Marden: I think it's been really interesting. We were talking earlier on, before I got the microphone out, saying how it's been a real mixed bag this year across the island of Ireland, hasn't it? So some people really, really busy, some people rubbish year.
Ray Dempsey: Yeah, I mean, I feel privileged the fact that, you know, we haven't seen that in Dublin. So, you know, there's a it's been a very strong year, a little bit after a little bit of a bumpy start in January, February. But, like, for the rest of the year onwards, it's been fantastic. It's been back to back festivals and lots of things, lots of reasons why people come to Dublin. And, of course, with the introduction of the NFL. That's new to us this year. And hopefully, we'll see it for a number of years to come. But they're great builders for organic growth for our visitor numbers. So I'm happy to say that I'm seeing a growth in both revenue and in visitor numbers in the Jameson Distillery. So I'm happy to see that. Now, naturally, I'm going to have to work harder to make sure it happens next year and the year after. But I'm happy to say that the tourism product in Dublin has definitely improved. And Dublin-based visitor attractions are doing well.
Paul Marden: Exciting plans for summer 26?
Ray Dempsey: Yes, every year is exciting, Paul. And every year brings a challenge and everything else. But I'm delighted to say that our focus for 2026 really is on building inclusion. So we're looking at language tours.
Ray Dempsey: We're looking at tours for... you know, margins in society. And I think it's a really interesting way for us to be able to embrace accessibility to our story. And also, we have increased our experience repertoire to engage more high-end experiences, not private experiences. More demand for those. Okay. So we're delighted to say that we have the product in order to be able to do that. So that's exciting for us, you know, to be building into 2026. Great.
Paul Marden: Thank you so much for joining us. I am the only thing standing in the way of you and a drink at the cocktail reception later on. So I think we should call it quits.
Ray Dempsey: And for sure.
Paul Marden: If you enjoyed today's episode, then please like and comment in your podcast app. It really does help others to find us. Today's episode was written by me, Paul Marden, with help from Emily Burrows from Plaster. It was edited by Steve Folland and produced by Wenalyn Dionaldo. See you next week.